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Debian Policy Updated Following Recent Systemd "Init System Diversity" Vote

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Karl Napf View Post
    But they did de-facto: Packages must ship systemd units now.
    This happened back then when they switched to systemd as default.

    The issue is that you can easily make a systemd unit that is in fact a shim (a "oneshot" type) and just calls a script and quits, then the script is doing the actual work.

    Systemd must work and breakage there can stop a release.
    Same as above. This happened when they decided systemd is default.

    If somebody wants anything else to work, then that somebody needs to put in the work
    bullshit, they have and maintain the official package for sysv https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/sysv-rc and for openRC https://packages.debian.org/sid/openrc and runit https://packages.debian.org/stretch/runit

    Are you aware that projects like Devuan are basically just assembling a different installer iso using packages they don't even maintain? Because I can create a debian image with that too if I want, using debootstrap.

    Does Debian support multiple inits?
    Yes, they provide packages for other inits, see above. Compare with the other distros I cited, that DO NOT have them at all in official repositories (on Arch for example they are all available from AUR which is the user-submitted stuff, similar to Ubuntu's PPAs)

    You get one init pre-installed out of the box and that is the supported one.
    Sysv and others are official and "supported" too, to the extent that Debian project supports things (there is a maintainer and you can report bugs about it). The maintainers of packages that decided to not ship initscripts or shipped crap initscripts are unaffected, even before when they were supposed to ship them they did whatever they pleased.

    Debian's default GUI is GNOME 3, does this mean that any other GUI is not supported and requires any amount of work on your part to work? No it does not.

    I see little difference between the Linux distributions you listed and Debian
    That's your own issue, they are different. You are confusing a default choice with an exclusive choice, which means you are wrong.

    The whole idea of "init freedom" in a distribution is bullshit ever since the term was coined by a bunch of morons that can't produce a distribution by themselves.
    Which is why this concept is laughed at outside of highly-politicized distros like Debian.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by ZeroPointEnergy View Post
      I still try to figure out which party has the bigger morons, the systemd "hater" with their ridiculous a gazillion times debunked arguments about systemd being a monolith or the systemd fanboys with their ridiculous "everyone not in our team is an enemy" tribalism.
      both haters and fanbois are the same type of person (a moron) regardless of the flag they chose, so I'd say "both, both is good".


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      • #23
        Originally posted by brainlet_pederson
        Everyone sane is either using systemd or quietly using something else. Only trolls and whiney little bitches are still talking about "tribalism" at this point.
        So mad. It must really hurt somewhere deep if someone uses something else. Do you want to talk about it?

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        • #24
          Originally posted by ZeroPointEnergy View Post
          So mad. It must really hurt somewhere deep if someone uses something else. Do you want to talk about it?
          he is mad at people trolling on both fronts, not at systemd haters

          I personally wouldn't mind some change of scenery too.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
            This happened back then when they switched to systemd as default.
            Systemd in debian will use sysv-init scripts when no unit file is found. So no.

            Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
            bullshit, they have and maintain the official package for sysv https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/sysv-rc and for openRC https://packages.debian.org/sid/openrc and runit https://packages.debian.org/stretch/runit
            Those packages areby debian, right. They are a labor of love by some motivated debian packagers.

            Neither of those packages are not officially supported by debian. Neither will block a release if they break. Neither is tested during releases.

            Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
            Are you aware that projects like Devuan are basically just assembling a different installer iso using packages they don't even maintain? Because I can create a debian image with that too if I want, using debootstrap.
            I am aware that Devuan is taking 99.9% of all its packages unchanged from Debian servers, yes. The rest is mostly branding, and the occasional package where they actually patched something.

            Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
            Yes, they provide packages for other inits, see above. Compare with the other distros I cited, that DO NOT have them at all in official repositories (on Arch for example they are all available from AUR which is the user-submitted stuff, similar to Ubuntu's PPAs)
            That is a matter of the distributions policy. Debian will accept basically any package that follows certain standards into their main repositories (provided a debian developer can be bothered to maintain the package). Other distros have other rules about where packages should get stored.

            Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
            Sysv and others are official and "supported" too, to the extent that Debian project supports things (there is a maintainer and you can report bugs about it). The maintainers of packages that decided to not ship initscripts or shipped crap initscripts are unaffected, even before when they were supposed to ship them they did whatever they pleased.
            How would you make volunteers do what they do not want to do?

            As long as people want to work on sysv-init packages, Debian will ship sysv-init packages. Up to the policy change we are talking about here sysv-init scripts were still the only officially supported way to start services in Debian, so of course sysv-init is still supported at this time.

            Debian moves slowly, give them some time:-)

            Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
            Debian's default GUI is GNOME 3, does this mean that any other GUI is not supported and requires any amount of work on your part to work? No it does not.
            Oh, the "but we have multiple Foo, too" argument again. A desktop environment is very different to an init system, so this is bogus.

            Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
            That's your own issue, they are different. You are confusing a default choice with an exclusive choice, which means you are wrong.
            There is no exclusive choice in a project like Debian.

            Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
            Which is why this concept is laughed at outside of highly-politicized distros like Debian.
            First of I do not see anybody laughing at Debian. It is a well respected distribution with a well respected culture of openness and communication. Take the last GR for example. That was a shining example of having a fruitful discussion on a heavily contested topic.

            Then any distro is highly-politicized. Debian is, too.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by brainlet_pederson
              Honestly, I can't think of anything I care about less than what init system someone else uses...
              Maybe I just misunderstood you. I basically wrote how ridiculous the whole discussion is and you seemed to disagree with what looked like some childish "no you" answer. Sorry if I misinterpreted that.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by ZeroPointEnergy View Post
                I still try to figure out which party has the bigger morons, the systemd "hater" with their ridiculous a gazillion times debunked arguments about systemd being a monolith or the systemd fanboys with their ridiculous "everyone not in our team is an enemy" tribalism.
                Good luck with that. Hopefully the sanitarium will let you write emails & post to forums once you have completed your research. /sarcasm

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by Karl Napf View Post
                  Systemd in debian will use sysv-init scripts when no unit file is found. So no.

                  Those packages areby debian, right. They are a labor of love by some motivated debian packagers.

                  Neither of those packages are not officially supported by debian. Neither will block a release if they break. Neither is tested during releases.
                  With the recent SNAFU in the /usr/sbin/mkinitramfs script because of changes in "kmod", I guess not much else is tested in Debian Bullseye either

                  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugr...cgi?bug=948257

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                  • #29
                    Good thing Bullseye is the testing branch.

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