Debian Developers Take To Voting Over Init System Diversity

[oiaohm]

systemD has caused me nothing but trouble in comparision to initd. please dont hate me for it, but i have sat in office too many times waiting for a machine to finally shut down that I am just done with systemd and lennarts shennenigans.

https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/227017/how-to-change-systemd-service-timeout-value

Systemd has adjustable timeout values. So that wait time on shutdown can in fact be adjusted. If a system is stalling on shutdown with systemd this means that systemd is detecting something that has been given a shutdown instruction and not doing it. Systemd system without some third party software being defective shutdowns faster than sysvinit by a large margin. Systemd slow to shutdown you either mask out by adjusting the timeouts on how long it waits for miss behaving software or fix the miss behaving software that is not systemd.

Next systemD is going to be its own OS with mailsettings and whatnot. That is not how proper software is made. systemD can be nice if you just care for a fast boot or sth. but in now way has any system gotten better in performance...at least for the machines i am root on.

Lets make up fiction to justify personal incompetence is all this is.

devuan works like a charm and i am sure systemD will have its fanboys like apple or M$ did ...but that will go away eventually and we can all again enoy the philosophy again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy

This is just that you are incompetent and don't care about losing your data. Openrc with cgroups will also have shutdown stalls as it detects defective programs same way systemd does.

Yes the go away eventually is just you wanting to put head in sand instead of facing up to the problems and learning something new.

Yes the Unix philosophy is a fools item here. Reality is sysvinit does not do one thing right on a Linux kernel. sysvinit fails the Unix philosophy test of "Make each program do one thing well." in every single part. Systemd is in fact multi applications many of those do conform to Unix philosophy of do one thing well.

devuan like it or not it default of sysvinit does not work well. Some of the problems people complain about like the stalling shutdown problem happen when you use a solution that works we because is a sign that you have other software problems that are not systemd/openrc/shepherd that need to be fixed because this can be why at times you can have major data loss.

Systemd does not do everything wrong. Some things people complain about with systemd is because systemd is doing it right and sysvinit was doing it wrong.

Sysvinit lets just brute force kill the system on shutdown without picking up that a service has not shut down properly who cares how much data this destroys lets not give the user a sign that there is anything wrong either. That is exactly what has been going on. Systemd/openrc(with cgroups)/shepherd fixes this problem at the price that when you have something broken in your system your shutdown will be longer unless you alter the default timeout values.

On system with services and applications that shutdown properly systemd and shepherd shutdown faster than sysvinit and openrc every single time.

Really lot of the arguments against systemd are like this where they are incompetence being used to ignore a detected problem just because is a problem systemd detects and attempts to handle correctly that sysvinit never handled correctly.

[ALRBP]

you can't even think properly
so *, did elogind change systemd design? no, it didn't. therefore, design of systemd is fine
systemd's devs are more competent than you can imagine. they did have apis of different systemd's components available independently, but nobody is going to work for free for * like you, so someone besides systemd's devs had to write(and maintain) alternative implementation

What is proving that I am right, in your post, is that you can't just discus without insulting others. You are not in rational thinking, you are in hate of everything that is not pro-systemd.

"so *, did elogind change systemd design? no, it didn't. therefore, design of systemd is fine"
systemd-logind depends on the init system systemd (it is not even a separated package), elogind does not. Yes, it is a major change. All-in-one software vs independent components.

"nobody is going to work for free for * like you"

https://devuan.org

https://www.gentoo.org

An since Gentoo is one of the most advanced GNU/Linux distributions, I do not think Gentoo's users can be called "imbeciles"

[pal666]

What naive assessment ? Systemd's designed was enough bad to make a DE (GNOME) depend on an init system ! I do not think we need more.

you can't even think properly

Good thing that Gentoo's devs managed to fix that with elogind.

so moron, did elogind change systemd design? no, it didn't. therefore, design of systemd is fine

If systemd's devs were the least competent, they would have done the work of making different systemd's components available independently themselves, not let Gentoo's devs do it.

systemd's devs are more competent than you can imagine. they did have apis of different systemd's components available independently, but nobody is going to work for free for imbeciles like you, so someone besides systemd's devs had to write(and maintain) alternative implementation

[ALRBP]

you first have to wait for your naive assessment of systemd's design to become true. inevitably you will fail first

What naive assessment ? Systemd's designed was enough bad to make a DE (GNOME) depend on an init system ! I do not think we need more.
Good thing that Gentoo's devs managed to fix that with elogind.
If systemd's devs were the least competent, they would have done the work of making different systemd's components available independently themselves, not let Gentoo's devs do it.

[pal666]

systemD has caused me nothing but trouble in comparision to initd

who cares about you? go learn something or stop breaking your computers, nobody is going to work for you for free just because you are intellectually challenged. first homework is to learn how systemd is perfectly in line with unix philosophy

[pal666]

all it has to do is wait for systemd's naive design to inevitably fail.

you first have to wait for your naive assessment of systemd's design to become true. inevitably you will fail first

[pal666]

Yep, in the same way that Ubuntu is in the way of Debian's community. If amateurs don't know any better, they go straight for Ubuntu rather than "the less corporately influenced" Debian. The same will happen for Devuan.

the same will happen for devuan only after devuan becomes free cdrom mailing shop and spends hundreds millions of dollars. looks like impossible task for 1.5 imbeciles. no, actually that's not enough. free cdrom mailing shop still has no resources to fork init system and has to closely follow debian upstream

[kpedersen]

lol, did debian had some law preventing devuan from building up a community? community of 1.5 imbeciles can't do much

Yep, in the same way that Ubuntu is in the way of Debian's community. If amateurs don't know any better, they go straight for Ubuntu rather than "the less corporately influenced" Debian. The same will happen for Devuan... all it has to do is wait for systemd's naive design to inevitably fail.

[pal666]

finally let Devuan build up a community and take over.

lol, did debian had some law preventing devuan from building up a community? community of 1.5 imbeciles can't do much

[kpedersen]

Choice 9: Focus on systemd and leave the rest to Devuan

I agree. Debian should stop pretending that they haven't majorly dropped the ball and finally let Devuan build up a community and take over.