Debian Adds Another Option For Its Init System Diversity General Resolution

[desktorp]

Why are you so obsessed with shielding shitty programmers from criticism? Sure, Red Hat has nothing to do with Debian's decision to adopt System D, even though they create it and campaign for its adoption. "Blind obsession," you say?? Now you're just making fun of Debian's leadership.. how terrible of you.

[finalzone]

Why did you even bother to post.... lets be real clear, Lennart writes shitty software, that Redhat pawns off on the masses, and is reviled by long time Linux users. The fact that RedHat is not really the down to earth Desktop Linux distro company it was 20 years ago is beyond evident.

A reciprocal question applied to you in this topic as well: why obsessing on attacking Lennart Poettering and Red Hat who have nothing to do with the choice of Debian to adopt systemd or a software contributed by Red Hat for example? Put yourself in their shoes and see how well you can handle the pressure.

You already made a decision to run your own custom distribution with a Linux kernel heavily contributed by Red Hat and using improved ALSA driver thanks to PulseAudio. Posters who responded to your comments attempted to help you see clear by dropping blind obsession and get yourself well informed without the need of cheapshots. Think about real life when you will have to face similar treatments from someone else like you recently posted about individual or company known for helping improving the Linux ecosystem.

Let's back on the topic, shall we?

[moilami]

It's SJWs that join everything together because it gives them more power.

Law about free speech is just that. No jail for what you say (as long as it is not slandering). No law allows you to talk about topics the owner of the place does not want to.

Obligatory xcb comic


That is called censorship. Censorship is banning topics from media and talk, in areas you control.

Go tell that to Chinese, and claim that censorship is not censorship, that it is just so that I can say what you are allowed to talk

Do you understand that censorship and suppression of free speech happen no matter who is enforcing them? You are talking about the rights to remove writings. That the owner of the place can do, and in some cases must do as requested by various laws. It is still censorship.

There is no law saying that you can only speak about stuff what a forum operator allow. And you know that, so don't try to behave and claim like there would be such laws. What is not prohibited by a law is legally allowed.

The 4th voting option is calling censorship to technical discussions, and because of that I would vote against it.

Also, I have nothing against SJW, but if somebody is very much against SJWs, then I might begin to think what sort of free riding fence sitter or worse he is.

[cb88]

Then stick with your custom distribution on your system and you are on your own maintaining it without bothering distribution maintainers focusing on supporting both systemd and pulseaudio. Bringing Lennart Poettering just to insult him only highlighted a much deeper complex issue. Let stick to the topic about the proposal of init diversity for Deian


Why bringing Red Hat and IBM in the topic without proper context?

Why did you even bother to post.... lets be real clear, Lennart writes shitty software, that Redhat pawns off on the masses, and is reviled by long time Linux users. The fact that RedHat is not really the down to earth Desktop Linux distro company it was 20 years ago is beyond evident.

[finalzone]

How about I continue perfectly fine on OpenRC without that steaming pile of crap from Lennart... I even bothered to figure out all my issues with pulseaudio so I wouldn't have to run it to get sournd with firefox, asound for instance acutally works if you poke all the right bits, my system is *Lennart Free*™

Then stick with your custom distribution on your system and you are on your own maintaining it without bothering distribution maintainers focusing on supporting both systemd and pulseaudio. Bringing Lennart Poettering just to insult him only highlighted a much deeper complex issue. Let stick to the topic about the proposal of init diversity for Deian

Also RedHat hasn't been the company it was in a long time, and is now a subsidary of IBM... so yeah maybe you should educate *yourself*

Why bringing Red Hat and IBM in the topic without proper context?

[desktorp]

But, as with pulseaudio, eventually most of the bugs will get fixed, and the important bits will work acceptably well.

It was created in 2004 under the name Polypaudio but was renamed in 2006 to PulseAudio.

Some polyps are tumors .. some can be pre-malignant, or concurrent with a malignancy. The name is of ancient origin, in use in English from about 1400 for a nasal polyp, from Latin polypus through Greek. The animal of similar appearance called polyp is attested from 1742, although the word was earlier used for an octopus.

An image of the Kraken, blackened with cancer, crushing the Earth; each tentacle penetrating deep inside a different orifice, toxifying each of its penguin victims to the core; the perfect logo for IBM System D / Lennux.

[starshipeleven]

No, that is what you are being taught in preliminary school because it is easy for kids to understand while not confusing their minds with complexity of the subject and breaking their illusions.

It's SJWs that join everything together because it gives them more power.

Law about free speech is just that. No jail for what you say (as long as it is not slandering). No law allows you to talk about topics the owner of the place does not want to.

Obligatory xcb comic

There are various ways to limit free speech, for example domestically by saying angrily "I don't want to discuss this ever". Censorship is different action, and what happen with that proposal is exactly suppression of free speech.

That is called censorship. Censorship is banning topics from media and talk, in areas you control.

[arQon]

Sure there are edge cases where systemd is " over-the-top", like IoT-devices or servers with just one never-changing purpose, but would they use Debian in the first place?

I know of at least one such device that uses Debian (pre- / without systemd) and has probably sold over a million units by now. So, yeah.

The reason is, you can put something half-assed like busybox on a system like that if your PM is too stupid to spend the extra 4c on enough flash to run a proper OS, but the difference in what you can do with diagnostics etc on the device if you go with something like Debian instead is night and day. When your development and deployment environments are the same, and both are full-featured, what you can do with the product and how quickly you can actually ship it at a non-garbage quality level are a very long way ahead of where you'd be with a crippled runtime.

If systemd is "over-the-top" for that case, then systemd is at fault, not Debian.

I don't think that's the point of the GR though. I may well be wrong, but it's always seemed to me like this has nothing to do with any "real" choice, but rather is just an attempt to take all non-systemd options off the table forever. Whether that's because GNOME won't run without it; or Hartman's just sick of all the noise around it; or whatever, I have no idea. But since systemd isn't going away at this point, and RH is going out of its way to make sure systemd is the only option any Linux distro can realistically ever have without an impractical and ever-increasing amount of work, I'd be pretty tired of having to pretend to fight the tide too.

I'm not saying Debian SHOULD just cave: I'd prefer it if they didn't, if only because regardless of whether you think systemd is garbage or glorious, the fact that we now have *DEs* tied into it should be a clue that things are completely out of hand, and we're well down the road to having all the flexibility of a Windows system.

--

In case someone decides to declare my position on systemd for me: I'm not a fan of it, but I'm not a frothing opponent of it either.
The Windows services model it copies IS better than init is, in almost every way. There's genuine value there.
But each release has more regressions than it has features of any value to me; and the developers are more interested in landgrabbing than they are in producing functional software.
The attempt to take over all of userspace, with NIH versions of things that are just ridiculously defective and unready (systemd-resolved, as one example) annoy the hell out of me.
The only systemd feature that's ever been of any benefit to me is automount, and that doesn't even work properly any more.
But, as with pulseaudio, eventually most of the bugs will get fixed, and the important bits will work acceptably well.

And that's why I think it's important that Debian votes to preserve "init freedom" - not for the sake of init, which is already a lost battle, but more to send a message that just churning out KLOC isn't enough to get your code accepted everywhere, and that maybe Pottering et al should make some token gestures towards that code being taken in on MERIT, rather than simply because of RH funding it.

TL;DR - systemd design: okay. systemd implementation: bleh. systemd spread: really bad.

[cb88]

Pulseaudio is exactly like jackd... it all it does is provide a wrapper over ALSA, so every person using pulseaudio on Linux is still using ALSA. Pulseaufio doesnt implement any driver at all innuserpsace it merely controls ALSA. Very poorly I might add....

Firefox developers are often politically motivated ...they broke ALSA to promote yet another shitty audio layer instead of just fixing the code.

[Britoid]

No that is completely wrong. It's more akin to jackd being ported to Windows 10, Firefox going ooggle-eyed over it and supporting only Jackd for audio from now own even though windows provides it's own API. I mean it isn't even like Audio is *that hard*.

Also ALSA hasn't changed there is virtually no maintenance burden in support it and it is still *the* Linux Audio API TODAY.

Some would make arguments that ALSA is less secure than pulseaudio, however which do you trust more the kernel API or a buggy library that does nothing but start flamewars.

Um. One is an system that allows Linux audio drivers to provide interfaces to userspace and the other is an audio server that can use said interfaces.

They're not comparable and they don't do the same things. PulseAudio when it started out actually suffered because it turned out all the ALSA drivers were awful. On Firefox, apparently the ALSA backend was broken for ages because something else changed and no one tests it anymore (or cares to). So yes, it does have a maintenance burden and how dare you demand that people who probably work for nothing, mantain something just to support an odd setup used by probably less than 0.001% of their userbase.

Firefox developers are not slaves.