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OpenMandriva Is Also Making Plans To Move Away From 32-Bit Support

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  • #41
    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
    But, yeah, I agree with all of that. It's going to be really interesting when Linux distributions on random architectures are able to offer just as well or better (legacy) Windows support than Windows itself.
    I doubt it. Currently we see that modern Linux can not even handle native software from this decade...

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    • #42
      Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
      If your software can't be recompiled to 64bits without fixing it, then it was shit.

      I mean, ok, a lot of commercial software is shit like that, but I'm not blaming the architecture change for that.
      Then all open source Linux software are a piece of sh*t. I can give you a lot of examples, where it was necessary to make some fixes to build something:
      - To support 64-bit arches.
      - To support another ISA.
      - To support different bit order (endianness).
      - To support different compiler (GCC/G++ → LLVM/Clang)
      - To support a new version of the current compiler (e.g. GCC 4 → GCC 7)
      - To support a new release of libstdc++, Boost, ICU, etc.
      - To deal with new hardening flags.
      And I don't even mention the API breaks.

      It is not about some examples from the past. Such problems appear constantly. Of course, they are corrected, but new ones are discovered over and over. Just look at RISC-V - a lot of projects need some patches here.
      The reality is that complex software will always contain bugs. This can not be avoided. You just can't say that something that was written 20 years ago is sh*t because today it is impossible to build it on a new system without some patches. Following this reasoning, every software would be sh*t, because sooner or later you will find some bug in it.
      And games are finished works, just like movies. They will not be improved indefinitely. They are goods of culture, and you have to accept them as they are.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by the_scx View Post
        I doubt it. Currently we see that modern Linux can not even handle native software from this decade...
        Like how my 2012 Westmere system with an RX 580 plays Hitman 2 almost as well on Linux as it does on Windows or how Dirt Rally 2 worked on release with very respectable benchmarks or how the Wolfenstein games work well? I'll admit the multiplayer aspect could be better in regards to anti-cheat and some games don't run at their full potential, but a lot of modern stuff actually does work pretty damn well...

        Most of my Wine issues come from game modding and things on Windows that rely on scripts...I'd love to be able to patch the Windows version of FFVII on Linux...that's one of the few reasons I have a Windows install.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
          Like how my 2012 Westmere system with an RX 580 plays Hitman 2 almost as well on Linux as it does on Windows or how Dirt Rally 2 worked on release with very respectable benchmarks or how the Wolfenstein games work well? I'll admit the multiplayer aspect could be better in regards to anti-cheat and some games don't run at their full potential, but a lot of modern stuff actually does work pretty damn well...
          I was referring to dropping support for multiarch in Ubuntu 19.10+. This will be a huge pain in the ass, especially when it comes to GOG games, and even worse for Humble Bundle DRM-Free titles. Some of them are barely supported today on modern distros, but this is another story. And Windows 10 doesn't have any problem with games written for Windows 7. You see the difference, right?
          And when it comes to WINE, let's say that compatibility with Windows is far from being perfect. There is a myth in Linux community that WINE handles old games better than Windows 7/8.1/10. Well, unfortunately it isn't true.
          First of all, WINE support for Windows 9x software and DirectX 1-8 isn't very well. You have a better chance of running patched game for Windows XP or 7 while using dgVoodoo 2 on a DVXK setup, than when you try to run the original game in Windows 98 mode.
          And even compatibility with Windows XP is not perfect. I would say that support for Direct3D 9 is quite solid, but there are other things that are not so polished, like for example video codecs support (I had a problem Indeo Video Codec, but it was a while ago, so I do not know if it is still relevant) or network stuff.
          The problem is that the main development is now focused on Windows 7+, so we even have some regressions with older stuff. I can believe that there are some titles that may work better on WINE than Windows 7-10, but usually Windows wins here.

          Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
          Most of my Wine issues come from game modding and things on Windows that rely on scripts...I'd love to be able to patch the Windows version of FFVII on Linux...that's one of the few reasons I have a Windows install.
          Most of my WINE issues:
          - Crashing or stop working after Alt-Tabbing (or rather while trying return to the game).
          - Crashing while playing intros or cut scenes (issue with video codecs).
          - Videos not working (blank screen).
          - Random crashing.
          - Networking not working.
          - Incompatibility with anti-cheat software.
          - Sound issues: audio glitches either all the time or after some time.
          - Graphics artifacts.
          - Unable to set proper resolution.
          - Unable to return native resolution after quitting the game.
          - Controls not working.
          - Doesn't work with some copy protection systems.
          - Poor performance. Sometimes externally low, like the DirectX 7-8 game from around 2000 year that was unable to reach 30 FPS in some scenes on GeForce GTX 750 Ti.
          - Not working at all.
          - Regressions.
          Some errors occurred only on the NVIDIA graphics card, others on the Intel GPU.

          Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that WINE is completely useless. To be honest, I am quite impressive how well it works. But at the same time, I am a little bit disappointed that sometimes it doesn't. It still ~50% chance that something will work or not. I finished The Spy Who Shots me without any noticeable issues and Hitman: Blood Money with only minors issues. I also spent a lot of time in Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 as well as in many indie games (mainly based on Unity, GameMaker or RenPy engine). However, if I good remember, I was unable to run Air Conflicts: Secret Wars, Kane and Lynch: Dead Men and El Matador. Sometimes bugs were really strange. For example, in Tony Hawk Pro Skater 4 I was unable to control character at all, but there was no such issue in the menu. In GTA 2 I have experienced random crashing. Of course there were more cases, but I do not want to discuss them all here.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
            If your software can't be recompiled to 64bits without fixing it, then it was shit.

            I mean, ok, a lot of commercial software is shit like that, but I'm not blaming the architecture change for that.
            You're fucking moron. At minimum, long longs need to be changed to longs. That's bare minimum. Almost -all- code needs to have some case modifications to get it to compile for both 32bit and 64bit x86. They -aren't- totally compatible. Plus there is still -HUGE- amounts of x86 asm in production as we speak. And that's a true nightmare.

            You can't call something shit just because it uses the features of the architecture it was -designed- for you stupid idiot.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by xfcemint View Post

              Most of my software is multi-platform, but switching to 64-bits changes sizes of structures. That change needs extensive testing.
              How can I be sure that some old program of mine doesn't depend on some structure having exactly X bytes? Or some library that my program is using?

              Very risky stuff.
              Think of all the man-hours required for testing, and for checking every structure definition in the source code.
              Thank you! Exactly this! ^^

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              • #47
                Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                what is a "structure" in this context?

                because variable sizes don't change and a "structure" in c/c++ is basically a list of variables.
                OMG, you really are a fucking retarded moron. And now I'm convinced you've never written a single piece of software. Variable sizes -DO- change. The worst of them is long long on 32bit is just a long on 64bit. Structures on 64bit x86 are -NOT- the same as structures on 32bit x86.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by the_scx View Post
                  snip
                  You're not wrong, I'm just more of a glass-half-full type of person.

                  Especially with all the developments as of late -- I find it hard to be that negative towards Wine when in four or five years it went from "barely usable" to "a tool in my box". I just like how damn near all of my stuff just works, YMMV, on the latest builds of Wine/Proton without needing 75 custom prefixes made on a per-game basis (outside of edge-cases like FFVII, of course).

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by the_scx View Post
                    Then all open source Linux software are a piece of sh*t. I can give you a lot of examples, where it was necessary to make some fixes to build something:
                    - To support 64-bit arches.
                    That's the only one that I was talking about.

                    And yes I remain convinced that if your software needs any significant fixing to be migrated to 64bit it's because it was coded badly.

                    A lot of opensource software didn't have amazing code standards and still doesn't.

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                      That's the only one that I was talking about.

                      And yes I remain convinced that if your software needs any significant fixing to be migrated to 64bit it's because it was coded badly.

                      A lot of opensource software didn't have amazing code standards and still doesn't.
                      You need to define variable types to fit the data, and variable types are not the same size between 32bit and 64bit x86. Almost every software written by anyone, good or bad, needs case modifications to get them to compile on both 32bit and 64bit.

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