Gentoo Gets GNOME 3.30 Running Without Systemd

[Raka555]

Wine doesn't compile with LTO, that doesn't make either LTO or Wine bad things, it just means more work needs to be done to make them compatible. The same can be said of non-glibc and systemd.

I can make the exact same comparison with Steam, actually, just proprietary games in general, and non-glibc systems. Games are the only reason I don't bother with non-glibc systems. Make of it what you want.

I hear you, but Steam, wine etc are not core components of the OS. Steam doesn't try to take over the role of a dhcp client for example.

[You-]

Why would you care about other libc libraries than glibc ? Ask die Docker people how much bloat they shed going from glibc to musl-libc as just 1 example.

And then compare the size of systemd-nspawn (a few hundred kb?) with Docker (a few hundred mb).

I am glad that this is being tested in Gentoo, however mostly this is still integration of existing compontents - Gnome-shell also works on BSD which does not have systemd. Gnome only required the interfaces to be present, whether provided by systemd or another lower level library.

With only one implementation there can be problems where the interface can be misunderstood and bugs standardised, so with more than one implementation present if there are issues, once gentoo catches up with upstream maybe they can be dealt with upstream.

[You-]

For those commenting on UNIX Philosophies, are there any major BSDs in development that do not use a single repo for most development?

Systemd seems to follow this UNIX philosophy more closely than most linux components which are often more independently developed.

[cybertraveler]

Probably the best thing it did was light a fire in the init department and now we have a ton of good choices. It's great that Gentoo is doing the work to make systemd optional and a choice.

Distros were already exploring, building and using other init options before systemd starting being used.

Canonical developed Upstart for Ubuntu before systemd. Upstart solved many of the problems systemd later solved (including: parallel launching of services to speed up boot time & restarting crashed services). Canonical weren't even planning on using systemd and Mark Shuttleworth thought migrating to it was pointless. They only seemed to switch over when Debian (the Ubuntu, upstream distro) switched and the effort to maintain a systemd-free OS became more than the effort to switch to systemd.

So systemd didn't start the fire and the desire for an alternative to a Sys V init system was already there before systemd. One of the largest & most popular distros (Ubuntu) only switched to it as it was less work. This was actually all documented on the wikipedia systemd page in the history section with citations and everything. However, it seems that someone has gone through and wiped out this history.

Lots of distros are choosing systemd as it's the path of least resistance.

The design of systemd is such that avoiding usage of requires a fair bit of work. It's kind of designed virally, like the GPL v2 license.

It also makes me think of Windows. Many people don't choose to use Windows because it's awesome or exactly what they want. They choose to use it because it has a viral quality to it so choosing something else is hard and choosing Windows is easy. I have a family member who likes using Acorn systems. He can do most of his computing work on his modern Acorn systems, however he also has a Windows machine just because he needs it for certain applications and hardware driver support.

This viral quality of Windows, the GPL and systemd isn't just about circumstance and luck. Windows had a very deliberate EEE policy and also got involved in crony capitalism and propaganda by going to great effort to get their OS into public schools. The GPL is overtly designed to be viral. Systemd says right on the home page that they want to become a defacto standard for "Linux" and they have made architectural decisions which lend towards requiring that systemd replaces existing GNU/Linux software with systemd-speciic alternatives which then become dependencies for software which wants to use that functionality.

It would be possible to design a service management / init system which wasn't viral like systemd-init. However Red Hat & Co opted not to do that. Upstart is an example of a non-viral design. Same with Runit, Sys V init and OpenRC.

For better or worse: the systemd design is such that it is becoming a required dependency of many GNU/Linux distros.

If systemd was a person, you would say that it wants to assimilate everything such that everyone must interact with it.

If OpenRC, Runit, Upstart and Sys V init were people, you would say that they want to make their own set of customers/users/friends happy without creating any requirement for people who don't like their style to easily use one of their friends services instead.

Note: I know I'm preaching to the choir here. I expect most the people who don't get this wont get it after reading my comment & most the people who do get it will simply nod in agreement. If there is anyone reading who genuinely gained a new understanding of systemd from reading my comment, please let me know! That would be awesome.

[cybertraveler]

For those commenting on UNIX Philosophies, are there any major BSDs in development that do not use a single repo for most development?

Systemd seems to follow this UNIX philosophy more closely than most linux components which are often more independently developed.

GNU/Linux distros are not like the BSDs (FreeBSD & OpenBSD etc). GNU/Linux distros are more of a bazaar compared to the BSDs.

[Danielsan]

At least no one said that Gentoo people are stupid...

[duby229]

Quiet! Don't tell them that they still run code from Poettering.

Moron, yet that code was incorporated into it jut for the fact that it screws everything else. That was its purpose. LP specifically said so. LP said exactly that it is his goal to ensure that only systemd can run its components and that he intended to make things like udev and logind impossible to port out of sytemd.

All you ever had to do was read LP's very own words to realize that he has monopoly and anti-trust on his mind and -THAT- is his entire intention.

[duby229]

Unix is where Linux came from, but Linux has moved on considerably since then. We should be trying to build an awesome OS, not blindly following some philosophy while ignoring any developments that conflict with said philosophy.

That -is- by definition antitrust..... wheels are round because round wheels are what works. You can force square wheels onto everyone by telling them to ignore the most logical philosophies, but that's monopolistic as fuck. It's just plain wrong. Both logically and morally.

[duby229]

If the Unix philosophies were amazing Unix wouldn't be dead.

Unix isn't dead. And philosophies like KIS -STILL- produce the simplest, fastest, and least buggy software that is capable of being produced.

[Grogan]

Give Alpine Linux a go as well: https://alpinelinux.org/

It is Linux "done right" IMO.

I've not heard of Alpine Linux, thank you. I'll keep that in mind. I read a little about it and it sounds pretty cool.