Gentoo Gets GNOME 3.30 Running Without Systemd

[ssokolow]

It's not like UNIX APIs are precisely frozen in time. Most recent POSIX version is POSIX.1-2017. Ignoring POSIX-compliance - which in essence helps solve inter-OS compatibility problems and that among 3rd party apps, is just an typical arrogant "we do whatever the fuck we want"-attitude. Fueled by the sure knowledge that Linux's popularity guarantees they can get away with it.

Remember environment value POSIX_ME_HARDER.

I should probably have phrased that differently. "If UNIX had continued to evolve before adoption inertia made it prohibitive to both make major changes and get them adopted". (eg. If UNIX had continued to become Plan 9 and so on)

You wrong me here, somewhat. I don't feel slightest entitled to free work from others. My main issues with systemd is, it narrowed down "usable for me" Linux distros to bare handful which don't have systemd. WHEN I use Linux at all.
Because, and it might be distributor's problem, whenever I install some distro sporting systemd, it generally would require tinkering to have it working properly.

And it might require it again after random set of updates. As I see it, it's logical result of not following the KISS principle. Overcomplicate something and it will produce errors much more likely

Fair enough. I still think, at the very least, there should be a stronger focus on concrete, addressable problems with systemd that could either be fixed or targeted as distinguishing features by anyone who gets the urge to try to write a viable competitor, and which are too clearly and rationally stated to be easily dismissable.

(eg. my complaint that systemd's design puts too much in PID 1 where it can't be killed and restarted if it wedges, rather than a helper process that PID 1 could respawn if it dies.)

People's behaviour follows the path of least resistance. When there is big corporate entity doing much of the work for them, ofc they'd use it's work, even when they might dislike aspects of it.

Now, lots of anti-systemd folks, me including, are actually users of other UNIX-like OS'es. We dislike systemd for it's virality and negative effect on our OS'es (components replaced by systemd left undeveloped, DE's tightly integrated with systemd components making porting increasingly harder - pretty much systemd is increasingly limiting software both portable and usable on our OS'es).
Developers are finite resource, WHEN they start fixing shit caused by systemd in Linux sphere - who is going to be developing our own OS'es?

Yes, it's easy to say "if you dont like it, develop your own and better solutions". Who single or group of individuals coding during their free time would be able to compete with corporate backed full-time devs? Nobody.

I can see your issues there, but I can also see the viewpoint from the systemd side. Something like "At each level of the stack (systemd, consumers of systemd, etc.), the developers want to make use of the features of the platform they care about and not be held back by what they probably see as 'every little podunk operating system that happens to implement a subset of that'."

I have a nostalgic fondness for Windows 9x, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect the Rust compiler's Windows XP compatibility target to also support it when I put on my hobbyist programmer hat.

[aht0]

I can see your issues there, but I can also see the viewpoint from the systemd side. Something like "At each level of the stack (systemd, consumers of systemd, etc.), the developers want to make use of the features of the platform they care about and not be held back (1)by what they probably see as 'every little podunk operating system that happens to implement a subset of that'."

(2) I have a nostalgic fondness for Windows 9x, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect the Rust compiler's Windows XP compatibility target to also support it when I put on my hobbyist programmer hat.

(1)Like I said, sheer arrogance.
(2)And I was not talking about supporting long-dead operating systems through compatibility layer of an equally EOL'ed operating system. (Can't call WinXP "dead", US military is still using it, they pay heavy cash to MS for updates). Wrong analogy here.

I am predicting now: over time, GNU Linux would become systemd/Linux, tendency to distros become more and more like each-other is already visible, thanks to systemd - main difference in future would be mostly cosmetic - artwork and packages included. Enjoy your Lindows.

Then it would be one of two - people either start using more systemdless distros (meaning Linux would effectively split in two) OR mass-migrate to more popular BSD's (which have larger developer-base than any current systemd-less distro). There is already quite a lot of "systemd refugees" among FreeBSD user base. Gonna be interesting decade ahead.

[cybertraveler]

Then it would be one of two - people either start using more systemdless distros (meaning Linux would effectively split in two)

This is something I think may happen. It looks like it's actually already well under way.

The systemd / Red Hat approach to Linux is quite a big divergence from the prior GNU/Linux approach.

[ssokolow]

(1)Like I said, sheer arrogance.

Wow. It's arrogant to spend your own time on stuff that interests/pays you, rather than wearing yourself out selflessly making your project support every Tom, Dick, and Harry who comes to call?

(2)And I was not talking about supporting long-dead operating systems through compatibility layer of an equally EOL'ed operating system. (Can't call WinXP "dead", US military is still using it, they pay heavy cash to MS for updates). Wrong analogy here.

I'd say it's a perfectly good analogy because:

1. As an end-user, FreeBSD and Windows 98SE are basically the same: Operating systems which are niche at this moment which I use. (I run a FreeBSD-based router and I run a Windows 98SE retro-gaming PC which, like pre-online consoles like my N64, is airgapped while, like other PCs, is something I can and do develop for.)
2. From the perspective of the systemd developers, the BSDs are like Windows 9x. Some people use them, and it's technically possible to support them, but their market share is tiny in relevant sectors, it's far too much work for too little effort, and there's no "it's my hobby" factor to motivate them despite that.

I am predicting now: over time, GNU Linux would become systemd/Linux, tendency to distros become more and more like each-other is already visible, thanks to systemd - main difference in future would be mostly cosmetic - artwork and packages included. Enjoy your Lindows.

As long as it remains open-source and configurable in the ways I desire, I don't begrudge them this. In fact, I'd say this is somewhat overdue. Linux has had a history of being crippled by a community with a dogmatic fetishization of variety for variety's sake far in excess of what is healthy if you want to develop a platform.

(PulseAudio may be a pain in the ass, but the chart of what the audio stack could wind up looking like before it is infamous.)

[ssokolow]

Pinging Michael. Another linkless un-approved post.

[aht0]

I think unapproved posts "going away" for premium members, at least for posts treated as potential spam, would be nice.
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Wow. It's arrogant to spend your own time on stuff that interests/pays you, rather than wearing yourself out selflessly making your project support every Tom, Dick, and Harry who comes to call?

No. It's arrogant to think that everyone should think like you/me/whoever else does, like uniform sheep. It is natural that different people like different things. It's arrogant to subtly enforce it by writing a software, which by abusing the popularity of the particular devs "love child" actually does it. It goes against basic courtesy of "live and let live", it becomes "live like I think you should" - enforcing one's will, be it subtly or intentionally. In other words, it becomes sort of software dictatorship. Like Windows actually - You are more or less forced to use it when you buy new OEM machine and you have to take special effort to get rid of it.

You are wholly ignoring the fact that said dev or devs are not the sole human beings in this flippin' Universe but their actions actually affect others to a degree. In real life, as a society, we generally and for the most part try to act following certain rules of courtesy. In virtual world, it should be same but for some reason when face-to-face interaction falls off, people let their true character show. So, yes, arrogance." I know the best". Which time to time shows through even systemd's bug tracker.

I'd say it's a perfectly good analogy because:

1. As an end-user, FreeBSD and Windows 98SE are basically the same: Operating systems which are niche at this moment which I use. (I run a FreeBSD-based router and I run a Windows 98SE retro-gaming PC which, like pre-online consoles like my N64, is airgapped while, like other PCs, is something I can and do develop for.)
2. From the perspective of the systemd developers, the BSDs are like Windows 9x. Some people use them, and it's technically possible to support them, but their market share is tiny in relevant sectors, it's far too much work for too little effort, and there's no "it's my hobby" factor to motivate them despite that.

Operating systems which YOU use. Analogy is perfect for YOU. Again, now I have to point finger at you - arrogance. There are billions who use only windows. For them, Linux is niche.

I actually followed train-of-thought of "End of Life". BSD's are developed actively, ergo your analogy is wrong in that particular aspect.

As long as it remains open-source and configurable in the ways I desire, I don't begrudge them this. In fact, I'd say this is somewhat overdue. Linux has had a history of being crippled by a community with a dogmatic fetishization of variety for variety's sake far in excess of what is healthy if you want to develop a platform.

(PulseAudio may be a pain in the ass, but the chart of what the audio stack could wind up looking like before it is infamous.)

[/QUOTE]
You don't begrudge them just until it actually stops you from doing or using something you need or want. Then you start hating it, because working against it's intentionally created barricades is so flippin' annoying for all "dissidents".

[Veerappan]

Which required kernel features are missing on Alpha?

I know this is an ancient thread at this point, but I have to at least admit that I was wrong here. I managed to get systemd working on Gentoo/Alpha (along with Gnome Shell using a radeon HD 5400-series PCI card).

[Veerappan]

As a fellow Digital Personal Workstation owner, I salute you. o7

Mine currently doesn't have an OS, and I was just going to put OpenVMS on it, but it'd be cool to try Linux as well. It would be cool if you wrote up a guide when you're done.

This would be where you might want to get started: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handboo...l/Installation