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  • #11
    Originally posted by dungeon View Post
    Stable means production, testing is testing, unstable is development... but you use unstable as trollment ready and that is your problem
    Don't bother explaining to him, he's one of those willfully ignorant trolls who prefer to stick their hand under the sand and repeat their bullshit ad-nauseam, believing it will become true the more they repeat it.

    BTW, you are almost right.

    Stable means no changes (except security fixes and minor bug fixes), hence stability from change. You know that by updating, your workflow is the exact same.
    Unstable means that it is changing constantly (basically same as development so you're right). For a user it means that an update might break his workflow or change his workflow. For most users this is not desirable.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by Weasel View Post
      Don't bother explaining to him, he's one of those willfully ignorant trolls who prefer to stick their hand under the sand and repeat their bullshit ad-nauseam, believing it will become true the more they repeat it.

      BTW, you are almost right.

      Stable means no changes (except security fixes and minor bug fixes), hence stability from change. You know that by updating, your workflow is the exact same.
      Unstable means that it is changing constantly (basically same as development so you're right). For a user it means that an update might break his workflow or change his workflow. For most users this is not desirable.
      Exactly this. Stable means that all API:s and functionalities are set in stone so that e.g enterprises can certify their software as guaranteed to work on the system. Which is why something like rolling releases will never ever be used in the enterprise market. This is one of the reasons why IT departments hate Windows since each new Service Pack introduces new functionality and changes things around requiring software to be re-certified which is a lengthy and costly procedure.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by dungeon View Post
        Stable means production, testing is testing, unstable is development... but you use unstable as trollment ready and that is your problem
        He adds so many external things to his system, I wonder if you can really call it "using unstable" anymore as it's technically some sort of Frankendebian.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by F.Ultra View Post

          Exactly this. Stable means that all API:s and functionalities are set in stone so that e.g enterprises can certify their software as guaranteed to work on the system. Which is why something like rolling releases will never ever be used in the enterprise market. This is one of the reasons why IT departments hate Windows since each new Service Pack introduces new functionality and changes things around requiring software to be re-certified which is a lengthy and costly procedure.
          Service Packs are dead, Jim. Windows 10 killed them.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by Weasel View Post
            Don't bother explaining to him, he's one of those willfully ignorant trolls who prefer to stick their hand under the sand and repeat their bullshit ad-nauseam, believing it will become true the more they repeat it.

            BTW, you are almost right.

            Stable means no changes (except security fixes and minor bug fixes), hence stability from change. You know that by updating, your workflow is the exact same.
            Unstable means that it is changing constantly (basically same as development so you're right). For a user it means that an update might break his workflow or change his workflow. For most users this is not desirable.
            Well i said 'production' there because that is how they say in Windows world It is not totally with 'no changes' there too, as sometimes changes happen to be required, but at least they are as least intrusive as possible and so on.



            Originally posted by F.Ultra View Post

            Exactly this. Stable means that all API:s and functionalities are set in stone so that e.g enterprises can certify their software as guaranteed to work on the system. Which is why something like rolling releases will never ever be used in the enterprise market. This is one of the reasons why IT departments hate Windows since each new Service Pack introduces new functionality and changes things around requiring software to be re-certified which is a lengthy and costly procedure.
            Well, Microsoft also have LTSC/LTSB channels of Windows 10, that also won't break you:

            https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win.../waas-overview

            Basically they have 3 base channels too - Windows Insider, Semi-Annual and LTSC (there is also something called Quality channel, from LTS POV but that just like optional upgrading from one Debian Stable release to next Stable release) Not quite the same but that is very similar so something like Debian Testing, Ubuntu non-LTS and Debian Stable and further LTS/ELTS... CIP

            As you can see they also have something called 'Engineering Builds 1000s' and that is rolling actually like Debian Unstable or even Experimental Further you see 'Internal Validation' that is like Debian Testing, then goes 'Preview Branch' that is like Ubuntu-non LTS beta or Debian next stable alpha/beta whatever and 'Production' is like Ubuntu non-LTS or like others semi-annual linuxes, Fedora/openSUSE or such...

            Debian Stable and Ubuntu LTS are none of that, but in a way we could say "Annual Production & Long Term Channels" if we prefer to use Microsoft's vocabular

            Now of course debianxfce can't understand all this as he prefer to run 'Custom Engineering Builds 1000s' and to troll along the way how everything else is crap
            Last edited by dungeon; 11-11-2018, 03:52 PM.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by dungeon View Post

              Well i said 'production' there because that is how they say in Windows world





              Well, Microsoft also have LTSC/LTSB channels of Windows 10, that also won't break you:

              https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win.../waas-overview

              Basically they have 3 base channels too - Windows Insider, Semi-Annual and LTSC (there is also something called Quality channel, from LTS POV but that just like optional upgrading from one Debian Stable release to next Stable release) Not quite the same but that is very similar so something like Debian Testing, Ubuntu non-LTS and Debian Stable and further LTS/ELTS... CIP

              As you can see they also have something called 'Engineering Builds 1000s' and that is rolling actually like Debian Unstable or even Experimental Further you see 'Internal Validation' that is like Debian Testing, then goes 'Preview Branch' that is like Ubuntu-non LTS beta or Debian next stable alpha/beta whatever and 'Production' is like Ubuntu non-LTS or like others semi-annual linuxes, Fedora/openSUSE or such...

              Debian Stable and Ubuntu LTS are none of that, but in a way we could say "Annual Production & Long Term Channels" if we prefer to use Microsoft's vocabular

              Now of course debianxfce can't understand all this as he prefer to run 'Custom Engineering Builds 1000s' and to troll along the way how everything else is crap
              Most of the Windows customers that we have are all complaining that even the semi annual update path is way to tight but they are all forced to follow what Microsoft does.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by Vistaus View Post

                He adds so many external things to his system, I wonder if you can really call it "using unstable" anymore as it's technically some sort of Frankendebian.
                Amdebiantu. That's the nickname I've given it.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by F.Ultra View Post

                  Most of the Windows customers that we have are all complaining that even the semi annual update path is way to tight but they are all forced to follow what Microsoft does.
                  Well, inform them that this Windows 10 LTSC path exist (there is no so called 'feature updates' there) ... so where they could upgrade in 2-3 years, that is recommended and default also for Debian Stable or Ubuntu LTS users anyway. I think this is something Microsoft calls LTSC+Quality users

                  More than these 2-3 years is real LTS and that goes up to 5 years...

                  https://wiki.debian.org/LTS

                  even further is possible, but that is now so called extended support option, so Debian ELTS or Ubuntu ESM

                  https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Extended
                  https://www.ubuntu.com/esm
                  Last edited by dungeon; 11-12-2018, 04:27 PM.

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                  • #19
                    Originally posted by dungeon View Post

                    Well, inform them that this Windows 10 LTSC path exist (there is no so called 'feature updates' there) ... so where they could upgrade in 2-3 years, that is recommended also for Debian Stable or Ubuntu LTS users anyway. I think this is something Microsoft calls LTSC+Quality users

                    More than these 2-3 years is real LTS and that goes up to 5 years... even further is possible, but that is now so called extended support option, so Debian ELTS or Ubuntu ESM

                    https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Extended
                    https://www.ubuntu.com/esm
                    Sorry I read that wrong (english is not my native language) when I saw semi-annual, I meant to say that updating every 2-years is way to tight for them. Many of them are still on Windows Server 2012 because they have as of yet not certified everything for Windows Server 2016. I discovered this when they complained that we made too many releases one year and then they explained how much time they had to put into their upgrade path.

                    But then I work with enterprises like Banks and they are kinda anal when it comes to these things . I've seen them migrating slowly to containers so I guess that some one have sold them the idea that with containers you can safely version lock everything and thus never ever have to upgrade anything.

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                    • #20
                      Semi-Annual is every 6 months path, like with Ubuntu non-LTS, Fedora, openSUSE or such. 2-3 years is really normal period, for most cosumers and so for these who don't wont to see feature updates (and breakages ) that is kind of real maximum

                      Many of them are still on Windows Server 2012 because they have as of yet not certified everything for Windows Server 2016. I discovered this when they complained that we made too many releases one year and then they explained how much time they had to put into their upgrade path.
                      More than these 2-3 years is really special, these are usecases what LTSes tries to handle. Nothing wrong if they still use that, that is OK and is possible to contrinue to use that... well, i am posting this from Debian 8 LTS install, that was released even before Windows 10

                      lsb_release -d
                      Description: Debian GNU/Linux 8.11 (jessie)
                      This is sort of like if you still use initial Windows 10 Enterprise 2015 LTSB path.

                      Or if you use Debian 9 that is like using Windows 10 Enterprise 2017 LTSC and Debian 10 will be 2019 Enterprise, and so on.

                      And of course users who like they always have Debian Unstable with these rolling 'Engineering Builds 1000s' Plus, but that development won't go without possible breakages and surprises Same goes with feature updates, as with that there is always possibility to break something too, but people who like to be surprised that often could choose to use that too.

                      But then I work with enterprises like Banks and they are kinda anal when it comes to these things . I've seen them migrating slowly to containers so I guess that some one have sold them the idea that with containers you can safely version lock everything and thus never ever have to upgrade anything.
                      Well, true - if they have really old hardware and don't have security issues they can use it forever. Same way someone could stick to Debian 6 regradless that it does not have mainstream nor any support for years now.

                      I even believe that market of unsupported computers is huge, it is likely bigger than mainstream

                      Windows XP? Pfff! Parts of the Royal Navy are running Win ME


                      But OK, we are talking about supported OSes at this time, something that at least have some sort of upstream support and that is why it is recommended to upgrade at least in 2-3 years
                      Last edited by dungeon; 11-13-2018, 12:29 AM.

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