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  • Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    That's right but you are pointing a loaded gun to upstream developers. It's not always the case of the upstream being asshats for no reason, sometimes they do have a point too. Let's ignore Ubuntu for a moment.
    I never said they are asshats tho? I just said that some have a shitty vision (in my opinion). Clearly that's just an opinion, but the fact is that this is why forks or alternatives exist: because people disagree with their opinions.

    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    Many times upstream rejects contributions that are poorly written (i.e. hacks), or would increase their maintenance burden for no real benefit to their own project, like for example Gallium Nine.
    Interesting example here so I'll answer this (but my reply is in general). Gallium Nine is not that much of a hack and could be integrated in Wine-Staging which has far worse hacks already anyway.

    What irks me is this "No real benefit to their own project". That's the problem right there. It's their project and sometimes people disagree with that fact and their vision for the project. The amount of people who use Gallium 9 should speak for itself that it is a benefit to a lot of people, just not to the guy in charge of that project or whoever else was responsible (I don't think it was Alexandre who rejected it).

    Furthermore the code is already written so it's not like people are asking others to waste their time coding it. Of course, reviewing it and maintaining it costs time , but how about the guy who wasted time writing the code in the first place? Does his time not matter? He wasted a lot of time and resources writing it and people benefit from it.

    So... fork?

    See? That's why it happens. (I'm not answering you here, cause I know you're aware of it already, but explaining it to the other guy who was clueless as to why forks exist cause he thinks you can contribute to a project anything you want)


    Though technically speaking Gallium 9 is not a fork, so it's not quite the best example here, but whatever. ;-)
    Last edited by Weasel; 31 August 2018, 05:27 PM.

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  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    Right, nothing stops you.

    Nothing stops them from being rejected cause some guy in charge there didn't like it, either.

    A lot of time "patches are not welcome" is a much closer truth to open source in general, because it doesn't align with their shitty vision. Maybe you'd understand if you actually contributed anything anywhere.
    That's right but you are pointing a loaded gun to upstream developers. It's not always the case of the upstream being asshats for no reason, sometimes they do have a point too. Let's ignore Ubuntu for a moment.

    Many times upstream rejects contributions that are poorly written (i.e. hacks), or would increase their maintenance burden for no real benefit to their own project, like for example Gallium Nine.

    And it's not always downstream's fault either, sometimes (many times in commercial products) it's not really worth it to actually doing a proper upstreamable job, and you just fork, make your little hacking around, and then ship a product powered by the opensource software you hacked.

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  • Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by Cerberus View Post
    Nice strawman you got there. Nothing stops you from fixing bugs and submitting code and patches to existing projects or submitting your work to the archives and maintaining it.
    Right, nothing stops you.

    Nothing stops them from being rejected cause some guy in charge there didn't like it, either.

    A lot of time "patches are not welcome" is a much closer truth to open source in general, because it doesn't align with their shitty vision. Maybe you'd understand if you actually contributed anything anywhere.

    Leave a comment:


  • Danny3
    replied
    Since Canonical is now best friends with Microsoft and is rapidly stepping in Windows 10's shoes with spyware, data collection and other crap, I really like that Linux Mint devs are offering this alternative.
    I'm just curious now how easy it's to install KDE Plasma on it.

    Leave a comment:


  • dungeon
    replied
    Originally posted by tichun
    Would there be a difference if they added a bundle of packages to Debian, so you could get all their work with simple # apt install mint-desktop-cinnamon versus having a separate distribution?

    edit: same question applies to most distributions ^^

    edit 2: imagine ubuntu, red hat, steamos, clear linux, chromeos etc. as one.
    There can't be one good as at beginning there was two I imagined that World is global, but if you look at history that does not ever worked People makes unions, people breaks unions, inventing all the time

    In this World there are about 7K languages, about 7K ethnicities, but just about 200ish countries... these are like linux distributions, so there are major or minor players More and more you try to unite more, more and more the opposite effect happens and people invent something else

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  • dungeon
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    It became popular with the Ubuntu GUI change, not before.
    Nope ss11, Mint was popular even before when Ubuntu was with Gnome 2 just because they were doing this (and because they can do it there) Flash in browser by default, all audio/video codecs working by default, etc... in Ubuntu nor Debian that wasn't a case. For Ubuntu you must intervene to do so, for Debian even more, third-party repos needed, etc...

    Additionaly these GUI changes after Gnome 2 deprecation makes it even more popular, but it is not a primary reason they became popular really
    Last edited by dungeon; 31 August 2018, 12:35 PM.

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  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by dungeon View Post

    Nope, Mint was born and created to deal with shitty US laws (to take advantage of "not all laws works same way everywhere") Since they are from Europe (Ireland in particular, there these laws does not work) they started by providing blob codecs, mp3 support, flash, etc... everything what was missing from Ubuntu default and even illegal (particulary in US) to be shipped at the time

    Only many years later on they started doing their own tools and UIs, Gnome forks, etc...
    It became popular with the Ubuntu GUI change, not before.

    Leave a comment:


  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by Cerberus View Post
    Nice strawman you got there. Nothing stops you from fixing bugs and submitting code and patches to existing projects or submitting your work to the archives and maintaining it.
    Bugs have nothing to do with this.
    Upstreaming bug fixes from downstream projects still happens as long as the downstream project follows upstream in some form.

    But when upstream has a different vision than downstream, any change going against their vision will be rejected, and that's when forking is the only choice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael_S
    replied
    Originally posted by Cerberus View Post

    Because we need more distributions, you can't have enough of that, why pool resources and make existing ones better when you can fork and waste already thin developer resources of the Linux "community" even more.
    We don't have the right to tell other developers how they spend their time. So yes, I would prefer if all of the Linux desktop contributors in the world picked one distribution and one desktop and just made it awesome. Low resource use, easily configurable inside the single desktop to do anything from barebones XMonad or iceWM up to some gorgeous beast with better eyecandy than anything proprietary. One package format and every package you can imagine, etc...

    But people won't do that, we cannot and should not force them to do that. And if we are to be angry at any person or group over the situation it should be the state of the world in general. If 5% of the money poured into proprietary software today went into free software, there would be so many free software contributors that instead of one totally awesome, all-things-to-all-users Linux distribution there would be dozens.

    Leave a comment:


  • dungeon
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    Linux Mint was born when Ubuntu switched from GNOME2 to Unity.
    Nope, Mint was born and created to deal with shitty US laws (to take advantage of "not all laws works same way everywhere") Since they are from Europe (Ireland in particular, there these laws does not work) they started by providing blob codecs, mp3 support, flash, etc... everything what was missing from Ubuntu default and even illegal (particulary in US) to be shipped at the time

    Only many years later on they started doing their own tools and UIs, Gnome forks, etc...
    Last edited by dungeon; 31 August 2018, 11:15 AM.

    Leave a comment:

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