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Devuan 2.0 As Debian Without Systemd Hits Release Candidate Stage

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  • #51
    Flatpaks sound like bloat to me. "We can't run Fedora stuff on Ubuntu - so, let's put Fedora on Ubuntu! Ha!".

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    • #52
      Originally posted by Candy View Post
      But one thing should be kept in mind:

      Who brought us Gnome ?
      Who brought us PulseAudio ?
      Who brought us systemd ?
      Who brought us Flatpaks ?

      The same people! The same approach! The same big bang over night enforcement!
      https://media.giphy.com/media/1Z02vuppxP1Pa/giphy.gif

      Why should I use any of this crap ?
      Better not to;

      About flatpaks, this is what is done largely in the microsoft world for the last 25 years (at least): a large binary, containing the real program as well as all shared objects
      Which is basically a static binary

      Which is pure crap, has been part of the massive security hell microsoft is swimming into, and is far from efficient (from the resources point of view)



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      • #53
        Originally posted by kingu View Post

        What if you changed your argument to something that isn't so intrinsically self-imposing, save for the fact that you seem to believe in it for no other reason, change there would benefit it by only having change to account for.

        I think you will find "Linux on the desktop" as a goal, or Linux anywhere, in any amount, depends largely on what sort of Linux that is. If I can't share in the freedom you purport to exhort, what you have done is find yet another moral imperative to misrepresent people.

        The lesser evil of evils is not selling me on domination, nor does it actually prove itself valuable in getting there. The premise even rules that out at both ends. It isn't what Linux is now, nor what I want it to become in the future.

        I use Devuan, because I used Debian, and grew accustomed to the Debian way. It is what I know, and I see only double the downfall of changing to something i don't want. It is as unfancy a cake you could think of, you seem to have run out of ways to call bread bread.
        I am not sure what this even means. Systemd is in fact 100% Free software. Debian is still Free software. Neither of these projects are taking away freedom you have. You never really had init system choice previous.

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        • #54
          Originally posted by makam View Post
          What freedom do I even have if I can't avoid systemd or flatpak?
          The same freedom that you have to avoid libc, the Linux kernel or whichever filesystem you are using.

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          • #55
            Originally posted by Candy View Post
            That was already the case after systemd got adopted to most Linux distributions. Gnome started to depend on systemd (at least parts of it) and became unportable to e.g. BSD, Solaris etc. (speaking of that time back). I also recall some developers around systemd that said something like this: "We can't care for other non-Linux like operating systems e.g. BSD or Solaris" or something like this (google for it).

            But one thing should be kept in mind:

            Who brought us Gnome ?
            Who brought us PulseAudio ?
            Who brought us systemd ?
            Who brought us Flatpaks ?

            The same people! The same approach! The same big bang over night enforcement!

            Why should this look different this time ?

            But again: This is just my opinion. And don't ignore the part where I wrote "It may happen! It might not!". So chances are 50:50.
            FreeBSD's Gnome version basically stopped. It's 3 years old now @ gnome3-3.18.0_1 (there is work to fix this but it isn't done yet) KDE on the other hand reaffirmed it's commitment to supporting more OS than those with penguins as mascots. So very good on them.

            The screed your referring to is Poettering, I believe he was talking about how people who support other platforms are holding back Linux and we should all just use what he wants. He's a smart person but unfortunately arrogant and dangerous because he's actually able to inflict his vision of what the system should be on the rest of us and not everyone wants the same thing. I think the drive for grandma friendly desktop suitable Linux might eventually be the end of Linux.

            I used Linux since 1996 or so and the one thing over all those years and all the hell i went through since that time that got me so frustrated with it to stop using it was systemd so.. to add some context I use to be the guy that would buy a 24 pack of soda and sit down for a 18 hour long chat with my kernel to see if I could get a dialup modem to work. The system just diverged too far from what I liked to use however and on Linux I feel like my ability to use my computer the way I want is lost in a sea of bullshit scripts and half working implementations. Devuan is a good approach I guess and oddly enough I know people that use it and love it (and I don't know that many Linux people so considering they came to the same conclusion about systemd I did seems rather odd). Flatpaks is just more of the same.. bad ideas from desktop focused people.

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            • #56
              why debian developer just do make a chose box during installation? i think should be bettere to anyone

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              • #57
                Michael have you tried to do any digging of how large Devuan userbase in reality is? Eg according to https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=popularity there's tons of more significant distros that I haven't really seen covered here at all
                Last edited by nanonyme; 06-09-2018, 06:33 AM.

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                • #58
                  Originally posted by freespirit View Post
                  why debian developer just do make a chose box during installation? i think should be bettere to anyone
                  That would be awesome actually, kind of like Tasksel.

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                  • #59
                    Originally posted by GI_Jack View Post

                    I am not sure what this even means. Systemd is in fact 100% Free software. Debian is still Free software. Neither of these projects are taking away freedom you have.
                    "Free software" does not mean user freedom, just like "free trade" does not mean trader freedom.

                    It is the software that is free, and the trade that is free, not the user or the trader.

                    Ie. the availability of source is protected, nothing else:

                    - not whether you can use it
                    - not whether it does anything useful
                    - not whether the principles or concepts of the software are protected

                    Likewise, "free trade" only allows e.g. Europe to dump below-market price frozen chicken onto African markets without African countries being able to do anything against it or they lose their foreign loans.

                    The exporting country can be called free, the importing country can hardly be called free.

                    You never really had init system choice previous.
                    Sometimes choice isn't necessary. When hammers are just hammers, I am fine with them.

                    When the only hammers for sale are pink and flully, I will have a problem with it.

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                    • #60
                      Originally posted by jm111 View Post

                      "Free software" does not mean user freedom, just like "free trade" does not mean trader freedom.

                      It is the software that is free, and the trade that is free, not the user or the trader.

                      Ie. the availability of source is protected, nothing else:

                      - not whether you can use it
                      - not whether it does anything useful
                      - not whether the principles or concepts of the software are protected

                      Likewise, "free trade" only allows e.g. Europe to dump below-market price frozen chicken onto African markets without African countries being able to do anything against it or they lose their foreign loans.

                      The exporting country can be called free, the importing country can hardly be called free.



                      Sometimes choice isn't necessary. When hammers are just hammers, I am fine with them.

                      When the only hammers for sale are pink and flully, I will have a problem with it.
                      Everyone else except a small handful of people gets and loves systemd. Go use devaun and leave the rest of us who like this thoughtful sysvinit replacement alone then. SystemD has its merrits.

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