Devuan 2.0 Reaches Beta, Debian Without Systemd & Now Based On Stretch

[arokh]

I'm a Linux sysadmin going on 18 years, nothing has made such an impact on Linux as systemd has. As can be seen on the Devuan mailing list and on this forum from time to time, the anti crowd are pretty much composed of conspiracy-theorists and other non-technical lunatics. Most complaints boils down to that they think LP is evil and that systemd is somehow "forced" on people.

Tune in your tinfoil hats, users chose systemd distros chose systemd communities chose systemd it WON because of it clearly being the better alternative. Now start contributing, code something better or shut up.

[cybertraveler]

Hey oiaohm: may I suggest that you tone down your sophistry. Your approach might work on a TV-watching, alcoholic (or similar personality) but if you want to deceive people on a technical forum you're going to have to be more subtle.

I could suggest a few things to improve your game, but I don't actually want you to improve.

If anyone reading this read his posts and is unsure what sophistry I'm referring to, I'll point out a couple things to get you started:

• He uses terms like "We all know". Example: he said "We all know sysvinit design is flawed". This wraps up the fallacies "Argumentum ad populum" and "begging the question". The former being an attempt to derive a truth or a fact from popular belief. The latter being the act of presenting what should be the conclusion of an argument as the premise. I for one do no "know [the] sysvinit design is flawed". It may be primitive or lacking certain desirable features. It may even be a flawed design. But I don't know that to be true and I've not seen any evidence to suggest that "we all know" this on this forum.
• He says: "Basically the project it called sysvinit not just because it was attempt to be like the init system sysv had but because sysvinit the project also contains snippets from sysv and sys III documentation. So its a form of fork." In the context of his post, this is called a "strawman argument". This is -- for example -- when someone argues against a claim that was never made. He actually quoted me directly above as saying: "[everything] I've read so far is telling me that no GNU/Linux distro is running the original SysV init code". I said that because I was claiming that it is fair to say "SysV init style", in-part, because I don't think that any of these distros are running the original SysV init system.
• Ok... 1 more. "moving the goal post". He does this a whole bunch of times. My original post in this thread was to respond to nej_simon. nej_simon said: "Before systemD we had a single init system, SysV-init, that were almost universally used." I showed my scepticism of his claim by pointing out that very few (it turns out, only 1) of the distros I used in the last 10 years used a sysv style init system. oiaohm, subsequently confirmed that my memory of the inits used in the distros I have used is correct (with some claim that my use of the term "style" is incorrect). At this point oiaohm could make a simple agreement with me. We could agree nej_simon is wrong. But instead he goes on to move the goal post in all manor of different pro-systemd, anti-sysvinit directions, eg:
  • "cybertraveler My big problem the maintainer of sysvinit has stepped down and project are still using it and no one has taken over. At least when you look at openrc or systemd you can find current active maintained project." -- I'm not here arguing "sysvinit" didn't needed replacing in Debian.
  • "The problem I have with you using sysv init like hides the fact that we have a big problem cybertraveler of 1 project used by everyone that is now not properly maintained." -- again: I don't advocate for sysvinit usage and it just so happens that less than half of the distros I've used in the last 10 years actually used it. So why is this being brought up?
  • "since I don't want to prase someone doing something totally incompetence I have to be pro systemd" -- this is two fallacies wrapped up in one. It's moving the goal post (I'm not asking him or anyone to praise sysvinit or to even use it) and it's a false dilemma. A false dilemma is when someone present two options to choose from, when there are more than two options. In this case it should be clear to most people that there are more than the 2 options that he presented (praising incompetent action vs being pro systemd). The opposite of praising an incompetent action (I think he's referring to the early decision to continue using "sysvinit" when it was barely maintained and outdated) is not being pro-systemd.

Woops. That was more than I intended to write. Maybe this will help some people though.

I should note: it's quite possible that oiaohm isn't doing this consciously. In most of the places I've lived, it seems like people are exposed to an awful lot of sophistry from an early age and as a result people often don't even know how to argue their position without using it.


For the record: I am neither pro-"sysvinit" or anti-systemd. I do have a preference that systemd doesn't become ubiquitously used on all major Linux distros. I don't think that's an outrageous position to hold.

If you like systemd on your distro... enjoy If you don't: we currently have Devuan, Gentoo, Void, Alpine, Slackware and other options.

[cybertraveler]

Another post full of sophistry, including logical fallacies just popped up. This time from arokh.

I am giving cybertraveler points to whoever can find an example of each of these bullet point items in the post below.

• appeal to authority
• insult
• ad hominem
• false dilemma
• begging the question

I'm a Linux sysadmin going on 18 years, nothing has made such an impact on Linux as systemd has. As can be seen on the Devuan mailing list and on this forum from time to time, the anti crowd are pretty much composed of conspiracy-theorists and other non-technical lunatics. Most complaints boils down to that they think LP is evil and that systemd is somehow "forced" on people.

Tune in your tinfoil hats, users chose systemd distros chose systemd communities chose systemd it WON because of it clearly being the better alternative. Now start contributing, code something better or shut up.

Sir, yes sir! :P

[UpsetingFact]

It isn't total BS.
Maintainers decide. Not users. People better freaking learn that!

Users decide if a distro will die or get more maintainers.
People like you better freaking learn to not suck your own dick to that extent.

You're not elitists, just dellusional.

[arokh]

Another post full of sophistry, including logical fallacies just popped up. This time from arokh.

I am giving cybertraveler points to whoever can find an example of each of these bullet point items in the post below.

• appeal to authority
• insult
• ad hominem
• false dilemma
• begging the question

I carefully put them all in there, so they better be there

[UpsetingFact]

Before systemD we had a single init system, SysV-init, that were almost universally used. I don't remember many people complaing about the lack of "init fredom" back then. It's interesting that the need for "init freedom" wasn't a thing until there were an alternative.

Because SysV did exactly what it was meant to do, not Systemd.

We need simpler init system for sure, but not a more over-complicated one that has nothing to do with fsck for example.

You are not contributing a single line of code yourself but you expect others to work on stuff for free that they aren't even using themselves.

Do you understand that free software doesn't mean that someone is going to work for you for free?

No one owes you anything. If developers decide to work on systemd stuff only, it's their right. There is no conspiracy involved and no one wants to force anything on anyone. It's simply a fact that the majority of users and developers simply don't give a flying fuck on anything else but systemd simply because it's the easiest to work with and develop for.

After all, it's just a piece of software. Just get over yourself, you sound like a twelve-year-old who's got nothing better to do than to complain about stuff they are getting for free.

What if I told you, that he still contributes without any single line of code ?
The more users you have, the more maintainers and bug reports will come so the project don't die. That's pure common sense.
So, he does work through your bugs for free, period.

No one owes you anything, If users decide that what you're doing is bad and leave your dellusions, it's their right to let the project die.
The only conspiracy here is you sucking your own dick and forcing users to bear with your shit because you wouldn't get more maintainers otherwise , nothing more.

You're what's plaguing the Linux Desktop Year, and are even more toxic than Devuan maintainers. Oh wait, that's why non-systemd people are leaving the toxic and narcissic plague.

Just grow up, you're the dellusional 12-year old here for forcing people to use unstable shit then ask to do bug reports for free while things worked great, but you also not putting stability as a priority.

Without users and their bug reports, what you do is worthless, get over it.
If you want to play with mud and are a sad loner, don't force people who needs to build houses to come to you and deal with your crazy shit.

[arokh]

Who left who? You realize that nobody actually uses Devuan right? And that nobody of value is leaving systemd.

[UpsetingFact]

Maybe, just maybe, because they're still on Jessie that no one uses it ?

Until Devuan catches up with Debian, MX-Linux and Antix is the way to go to avoid systemd.

Why do you think the systemd developers have anything but a user-centric view? Maybe because user-centric really means you-centric. But it doesn't. The developers cannot just take your needs into account but also have to think about future users. It's them who would suffer because of an unmaintainable code base full of workarounds. The developers sacrifice some short term convenience for long term sustainability. It is a reasonable trade off. Certainly not the only valid approach, but also not a bad one. We've seen what happens when you pile workaround on workaround far too often.

When more guys than the developers ask for something and aren't listend because of stubborness, it's sucking-their-own-dick-centric.
Some users aren't that stupid, they are also thinking about future users and code maintainability.

SysV is getting old and needed replacement for sure, but systemd is only making one leap forward to five back.
So until something better and not that systemd clusterfuck is out, better stay on SysV.
Same for X11, it needs to be replaced, but not with shit.

Also note that users sacrifice themselves to, because they are the ones that'll have to deal with bugs and all, and must do the free bug report work.
They all want somehing that works on the long term.

The only stupid users are the OmgUbuntu! "Design" Whingers kind, and are the worst ones.

[UpsetingFact]

oiaohm:

You seem to have some kind of freaky thing going on where you attempt to bend reality using language, to fit your systemd-maximalism world view

Keep it real.

What you said shows how much dellusional they are. Right to the point.

Same goes for Gnome/GTK and Wayland developers, but also Lenart Poetering and Kay Sievers kind of quick-and-dirty coders.

And when will that be? Systemd opponents have been predicting this for years and so far zero distros have even hinted at doing this.

Knoppix, MX-Linux, Antix, etc

There's even a list on the internet: http://lmgtfy.com/?s=d&q=No+Systemd

Its a story that no one bare very limit numbers are willing to be maintainers of key init parts. You cannot expect those people to work on stuff they don't like not at least without money.

Debian cannot offer multi init if they don't have the personal maintaining them inside debian and the upstream people maintaining those parts those inits require. For most distributions serous about quality for end user are forced into the same hard choices. Sysvinit is not option because no one is being willing to maintain it and all add on parts.

Debian got maintainers for SysV (who went Devuan), until they decided to go systemd.

You can't expect users to deal with bugs and do the bug reports for free.
Most of them don't have time or know how to do that (BTS is nothing close to a website) and they're going Linux because MacOS and Windows aren't an option.

[UpsetingFact]

I'm a Linux sysadmin going on 18 years, nothing has made such an impact on Linux as systemd has. As can be seen on the Devuan mailing list and on this forum from time to time, the anti crowd are pretty much composed of conspiracy-theorists and other non-technical lunatics. Most complaints boils down to that they think LP is evil and that systemd is somehow "forced" on people.

Tune in your tinfoil hats, users chose systemd distros chose systemd communities chose systemd it WON because of it clearly being the better alternative. Now start contributing, code something better or shut up.

If the only thing that works is replaced by some unstable shit (technical lunatics you said ? don't make me laugh) without any other viable options:

It is forced, get over it.

What you're doing is exatly "Do as I say or die", period.

Hey oiaohm: may I suggest that you tone down your sophistry. Your approach might work on a TV-watching, alcoholic (or similar personality) but if you want to deceive people on a technical forum you're going to have to be more subtle.

I could suggest a few things to improve your game, but I don't actually want you to improve.

If anyone reading this read his posts and is unsure what sophistry I'm referring to, I'll point out a couple things to get you started:

I should note: it's quite possible that oiaohm isn't doing this consciously. In most of the places I've lived, it seems like people are exposed to an awful lot of sophistry from an early age and as a result people often don't even know how to argue their position without using it.


For the record: I am neither pro-"sysvinit" or anti-systemd. I do have a preference that systemd doesn't become ubiquitously used on all major Linux distros. I don't think that's an outrageous position to hold.

If you like systemd on your distro... enjoy If you don't: we currently have Devuan, Gentoo, Void, Alpine, Slackware and other options.