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Phoronix Reader: "GTK3 Kills Support For KDE"

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  • #31
    Well if the theme engine is marked as 'deprecated' then it can't be helped. Deprecated features are meant to be removed anyway.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by mr_tawan View Post
      Well if the theme engine is marked as 'deprecated' then it can't be helped. Deprecated features are meant to be removed anyway.
      Not in a point release they aren't. The whole point of deprecating features is because they will removed in the next backward-incompatible release (which should be Gnome 4).

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      • #33
        Originally posted by yoshi314 View Post
        i think it's not that they make sure to sabotage things. they simply do not care. qt visual integration is an external project, i think.
        I didn't mean to imply that they do. It's just that all things amount to the same effect.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by SpyroRyder View Post
          I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of Qt/KDE doing the exact same thing in the other direction. Any Qt program in a GTK environment with some themes just look awful and it's not the lack of CSD that I care about. Qt uses GTK2 in a GTK enviroment which means that you have to mirror the GTK2 and GTK3 themes. Some of the best looking GTK3 themes don't have mirror GTK2 themes because it isn't actually possible, or when it is it makes some programs like Libreoffice chuck a fit (which is solved in libreoffice 5 due to the GTK3 vcl-plug but the problem still remains).
          And how exactly would the Qt devs do GTK3 theme integration, when said themes keep getting broken? At least Qt does have GTK2 theme integration, which is more than you can say about GTK.

          Originally posted by You- View Post
          Just like how Qt developers stepped up to develop Adwaita-qt.

          Oh wait...
          No, just like they stepped up to create the GTK theme backend. With which, guess what, you can use Adwaita directly.

          Originally posted by Maxjen View Post
          I don't think trying to make everything look consistent is a worthwhile effort. To me Linux is like a melting pot where environments with completely different visions can coexist. And it seems like a waste of time to force a look on an application that is completely different from what the developers intended. You also wouldn't try to force Blender to look and behave like a Qt application. The important thing is that all applications can run side by side on whatever desktop environment you choose.
          No. A unified look is very important. And Oxygen was as close to a unified look as one could get. I remember how amazed I was at Mageia the first time I tried in in that no matter the desktop, programs looked largely the same! That's because they used Oxygen and Oxygen-like themes everywhere, even for OpenBox.

          Now, however, there's no more unified look. Perhaps Breeze will get there eventually, but that will surely take some time.

          And GNOME CSD is by far the worst offender. It's not just that the colours and widgets don't match the desktop any more, but even the window decorations and window management is wrong! How am I supposed to use KWin rules on a window that doesn't display the window handle to begin with? And if I force displaying it, then there are two window decorations at the same time. Also, last I tried, GNOME CSD apps would not respect the window stacking rules nicely because the shadow is technically part of the window...

          In KDE for the most part you can avoid GNOME programs, but for instance my scanner works with GNOME's Simple Scan and nothing else (SANE, and thus also Skanlite, locks up while trying to do some sanity checks, but looks like Simple Scan as well as the command line scanning tools do not do such checks and thus work well enough). And last I tried XFCE, it was a disaster because GNOME programs would look entirely different from standard GTK2 apps, with the huge buttons at the top and whatnot. At least KDE has the option of shrinking the buttons down, adding text labels to the side, and displaying icons in menus.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
            While a CSS-based engine sounds nice
            No, it doesn't. It's horrible:

            https://github.com/dirruk1/gnome-breeze/issues/8

            The previous engine was powerful and useful. This one is totally useless for real themes.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Maxjen View Post
              You also wouldn't try to force Blender to look and behave like a Qt application.
              Since Blender has its own toolkit which is designed privately and optimally for its own needs, coupled to the program with Python, and rendered entirely in OpenGL: that seems a bit of a straw man. It's only possible because all the source is there but the required effort would be monumental. On the flip side, there was some work to split out the UI (Ghost) in such a way that other programs could use it but it seems it didn't take off or catch on anywhere else.

              The important thing is that all applications can run side by side on whatever desktop environment you choose.

              Imagine an operating system that can run both Windows and Mac applications. That imaginary OS would be strictly better than Windows or Mac even though it wouldn't look consistent if you mix applications of both worlds.
              I kind of agree with that because I gave up on the single unified thing a long time ago-- headaches, diminishing returns, and all.

              Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
              No. A unified look is very important to me.
              FTFY.
              Having all your programs wear the same facepaint because you like the color is one thing but having them all look like they were made or vetted by the same corporation is much less important "to me". That consistency seems to be an Apple thing, and they can have it. If you make it a requirement (for users whose brains seize up when they see anything different, incl. yourself) then you'd better go on and blacklist Blender along with anything that uses FLTK or Juce or Java or Motif or Athena or whatever, and don't forget that some well-done & famous & terribly useful software has absolutely no respect for system themes-- for example, there are no classic widgets involved in the face of an average VST plugin. I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm saying that perfect uniformity of interface is stillborn. Exceptions will be made or software will be excluded en masse.

              Maybe your point was strictly about making the major toolkits on Linux desktops look like they were one and the same, then-- good luck, have fun. Someone already mentioned file selector dialogs. Eventually the facade reveals a seam. After China takes over the world, there will be one and only one standard C++ ABI, one GUI theme, one Javascript interpreter, one HTML rendering engine, one 3D graphics API, one operating system kernel... and all will be just dandy. Maybe.
              Last edited by rice_nine; 06 August 2015, 09:12 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by rice_nine View Post
                Having all your programs wear the same facepaint because you like the color is one thing but having them all look like they were made or vetted by the same corporation is much less important "to me". That consistency seems to be an Apple thing, and they can have it. If you make it a requirement (for users whose brains seize up when they see anything different, incl. yourself) then you'd better go on and blacklist Blender along with anything that uses FLTK or Juce or Java or Motif or Athena or whatever, and don't forget that some well-done & famous & terribly useful software has absolutely no respect for system themes-- for example, there are no classic widgets involved in the face of an average VST plugin. I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm saying that perfect uniformity of interface is stillborn. Exceptions will be made or software will be excluded en masse.
                Of course I'm not saying that everything must always look the same. I'm saying that there should be a level of cooperation between the major players so things don't look terrible when used outside the native environment. Again, XFCE is a good example. With half the applications looking one way and half looking differently, it just doesn't feel like an actual desktop environment, but as something with a dual personality disorder...

                And there's a level of technical reasons for it, too. I do exclude quite a few programs because of the toolkit on certain hardware, such as netbooks, because with 768 MiB RAM, having several toolkits loaded in memory at the same time is too much of a luxury. Also, again on the same netbooks, the huge icons in GTK3 programs eat all the screen space (a problem when the screen is 1024x600), more than is saved by CSD (and that's if we ignore the aforementioned shadow and double decoration issues).

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                • #38
                  Btw. GNOME-related guys invested some time into Adwait theme for Qt - https://github.com/MartinBriza/adwaita-qt. And on the other hand, Breeze and Adwaita are pretty similar. So even without it, it looks pretty consistent. I kindy like CSD but in GNOME, it seems like it's a bit miss used aka we have CSD and let's move everything into decoration. I'd like to see something in between.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Rezza View Post
                    GNOME-related guys invested some time into Adwait theme for Qt - https://github.com/MartinBriza/adwaita-qt.
                    Are you sure? I can't find any indication Martin Briza is at all involved with Gnome. On the contrary, he seems to be the KDE/Qt theming guy at Fedora.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by yoshi314 View Post
                      It does not mean the alternatives are pointless. It's just that it is a very good desktop for beginners, which appears to be very well thought out and everything fits together really well. and because apps look like they have an unified HIG and look, really helps to give off the polished, professional impression of the entire thing.
                      I agree, and I think every desktop environment should have at least a basic set of applications so that you can a make a consistent looking distribution that you can recommend to noobs. But powerusers must have the possibility to choose best applications for each task and these might happen to be designed for a different environment.

                      Originally posted by yoshi314 View Post
                      as for running mac + win applications. is mac with win vm, or wine that much strictly better?
                      Yes, because there would be no added disadvantage. You could still choose to only use applications of one side. Same thing on Linux. You can choose to only use KDE/Gnome applications.

                      Originally posted by rice_nine View Post
                      Since Blender has its own toolkit which is designed privately and optimally for its own needs, coupled to the program with Python, and rendered entirely in OpenGL: that seems a bit of a straw man. It's only possible because all the source is there but the required effort would be monumental.
                      Yes, my point was that I see the same problem with Qt and Gtk only to a lesser degree.

                      Originally posted by rice_nine View Post
                      I kind of agree with that because I gave up on the single unified thing a long time ago-- headaches, diminishing returns, and all.
                      I also once wanted a consistent look. But among the applications that I use now are Blender, Sublime Text, Qt Creator and Steam. These are ununifiable. And in the future there will also be the UE4 and Unity editors both of which have their own toolkit. Qt fans will disagree, but I also don't think that there is a toolkit that is good enough to justify having it as the sole standard on Linux.

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