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MPV 0.4.1 Brings Various Bug Fixes

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  • #21
    Originally posted by johnc View Post
    Do you use a web browser with a UI or do you browse the web with wget and curl?
    Quite a few browse the web with a very minimal GUI, basically just a tabbar (or not even that, depending on choice of window manager) and a status line. uzbl, dwb, luakit and similar webkit based browsers. Also the vimperator extension for Firefox. It's not hard at all.

    Besides, web browsing is a much more active task than watching videos, which is more or less a passive activity, so it's not even a good comparison.

    Originally posted by Vidar View Post
    but I like to believe that we're in 2014 and there's no need to use terminals like in the 80s anymore...
    Why do you have to resort to such extremes? Ignoring the notion that terminals are supposedly some archaic thing that we only used because there was nothing better and they have no use nowadays anymore... I don't touch the terminal when watching videos. I click on a file in the file manager, then navigate the video using a few keyboard shortcuts or the mouse. And I very much feel like being in the 21st century when doing that.

    Originally posted by Vidar View Post
    I'm not criticizing anyone, just sharing my frustration.
    You're ranting. And common with rants, you go too far, which dilutes your actual argument. Not to mention that those people you'd like to convert to Linux will likely use one of the big DEs that provide GUI media players in their portfolio of apps.
    Last edited by Gusar; 14 July 2014, 09:55 AM.

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    • #22
      Damn short edit times on this forum...

      Anyway, I remembered something that needs to be mentioned here - mpv contains an integrated mouse-driven UI that could be sufficient for many people. For those unfamiliar with it, it's in the screenshot on the mpv homepage: http://mpv.io/

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      • #23
        Not to mention that those people you'd like to convert to Linux will likely use one of the big DEs that provide GUI media players in their portfolio of apps.
        It seems to confirm the idea that MPV is targeted at obscure use cases.

        Originally posted by Gusar View Post
        Quite a few browse the web with a very minimal GUI, basically just a tabbar (or not even that, depending on choice of window manager) and a status line. uzbl, dwb, luakit and similar webkit based browsers. Also the vimperator extension for Firefox. It's not hard at all.
        The epitome of obscurity. "Not hard at all" is accurate, but missing the point of course. Much like the person who asked "why do we need a UI"? As if the bare minimum is what we should be targeting. Does the bare minimum really provide value to anybody but a tiny, tiny, tiny segment of users? Almost nobody wants crippled applications.

        And all of this under the catch-all, silver-bullet rationale of "removing cruft" which always brings out the head-nodding.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by johnc View Post
          It seems to confirm the idea that MPV is targeted at obscure use cases.
          Watching videos without a full-fledged GUI around it is hardly obscure. We're talking about something that doesn't entail much interactivity.

          Originally posted by johnc View Post
          The epitome of obscurity. "Not hard at all" is accurate, but missing the point of course.
          Yes those browsers are quite a bit more obscure than a no-frills media player. But I didn't miss any point - you asked if people browse the web without a GUI, I answered that yes, they do indeed. GUIs aren't a necessity, not even for a complex task such as web browsing, let alone for something passive like video watching. They do in many cases provide convenience though, and for web browsing I do use a full-fledged GUI browser because of this convenience. It all depends on what kind of task is being performed.

          Originally posted by johnc View Post
          Does the bare minimum really provide value to anybody but a tiny, tiny, tiny segment of users? Almost nobody wants crippled applications.
          Unlike web browsers, mpv provides a lot more than the bare minimum even without a full-fledged GUI. And it is definitely not "crippled". Like with the other poster, why such use of extremes? They do not make your arguments any stronger.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by Gusar View Post
            Unlike web browsers, mpv provides a lot more than the bare minimum even without a full-fledged GUI. And it is definitely not "crippled". Like with the other poster, why such use of extremes? They do not make your arguments any stronger.
            It is not "extreme" to acknowledge the reality that less than one tenth of one percent are likely to use a media player through a command line and most people will reject such a method simply because it is crippled by its lack of functionality. Of course nobody has argued that it isn't possible, or that it is absolutely necessary to use a UI -- just as we all agree that you can browse the web with Lynx and you can design, code and debug Android apps with vi. That, of course, is not what is being criticized.

            Yes, watching a video is reasonably passive. And many people will even watch it with a remote to handle playback functions. But there are many other things involved such as selecting the video to play, resuming from previous location, setting various playback options and preferences, selecting subtitles, etc. which UIs are generally better predisposed to handle over, say, .preference files, man pages and command line switches.

            I feel like the argument I'm making here is even too obvious to be worth spending time on.

            And all of this has to be balanced against the fact that ripping out slave mode, etc. did not really add a lot of value to the actual end-user, and was almost entirely done to make the developer sleep well at night. Which is certainly a laudable end, but let's at least be honest about acknowledging what we give up in the process, rather than trivializing it by pretending we got rid of something that was merely "unnecessary".

            I have spent entirely too much time in mplayer2 code than I would like to publicly admit, so yeah I do understand the developer's perspective. But I've also spent a lot of time w/ mplayer2 and SMPlayer as a user, and my view is that the former perspective must be subservient to the latter.

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            • #26
              mpv is still receiving a bunch of commits daily that focus on making the core player better, so it's unrealistic to expect a full-fledged GUI right now (cart before horse) . Of course, that won't stop some people from complaining and being hyper-critical...

              mpv is my player of choice and I find the OSD is usually enough GUI for me, though sometimes I have to dig an option out of the man page (like bauer stereophonic filter for headphone use) that would be quicker/easier with a GUI.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by johnc View Post
                It is not "extreme" to acknowledge the reality that less than one tenth of one percent are likely to use a media player through a command line and most people will reject such a method simply because it is crippled by its lack of functionality.
                As I pointed out in a previous post, mpv not having a full-fledged GUI does not mean the console needs to be involved. Also, for those who do not reject such a method, mpv (mplayer/mplayer2 too) has a very rich CLI interface. Then there's the extensive keyboard controls. So claiming lack of functionality and being crippled is downright silly.

                Originally posted by johnc View Post
                I feel like the argument I'm making here is even too obvious to be worth spending time on.
                The problem is not so much the argument itself (I get it, people want GUIs even for video playback, I never denied that, nor am I (or the mpv devs for that matter, they did create the client API after all) trying to prevent people from having one, it's just that I personally don't see the need), it's about how you're presenting it.
                Last edited by Gusar; 14 July 2014, 12:19 PM.

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                • #28
                  I like GUIs on my media players. Mostly to make editing preferences, getting track info and selecting specific audio/subtitle tracks easier instead of editing configuration files and looking through the syntax documentation. A good GUI is usually more self documenting for that kind of stuff. Sometimes the keyboard shortcuts aren't as nice either. Of course, once the video starts playing, I don't need the GUI anymore until the next video I watch.

                  I may not need a GUI but I'm less likely to use a player that doesn't have one unless it's the only player that can play a particular video. It's all about convenience for me. Convenience is why I have a PC, smartphone, eReader, etc.
                  Last edited by pumahove; 14 July 2014, 12:26 PM.

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                  • #29
                    Okay....

                    So, here are my two tiny cents on this matter:

                    In this day and futuristic age of cell-phones and hover cars, a GUI should kind of be mandatory on some thing that is made for a normal dumb user, like a media player such as mpv.. You could technically say that any thing is not necessary.. You could even say your car isn't necessary to drive to work every day, because you have legs that can walk you to work..
                    However, also in this day and age, I think that communication between back-end and front-end should be established using some thing better than slave-mode.. Reading the output of a program really is a horrid way of making the front-end work..

                    However....Even though slave-mode sucks, I don't think you should abandon it before you have its replacement already working..
                    In other words, I don't think it was the best decision for mpv to say "Slave-mode sucks, so we just won't have any thing......and maybe in the future we will make an API some day"....
                    ..I think that they should have the working API first BEFORE they decide to trash slave-mode..
                    It would be like getting rid of your car right now because it is getting old and crappy, on the justification that "Some day I will buy an awesome new car to drive to work", but in the meantime you have to walk to work from now until you finally are able to buy that new car.. Does that seem logical??.. Most sane people would keep using the old car until they get the new car, THEN they can trash the old car, and not before..

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by johnc View Post
                      Do you use a web browser with a UI or do you browse the web with wget and curl?
                      You seem to be confusing necesseties with unnecessary stuff.
                      What people need from video player is to display video frame (in window or fullscreen) and audio as intended. Obvious necesseties are seeking, volume controls, track selection, subtitles.
                      To do things listed above you dont' need any UI, as the result is still video frame on your screen. Under the hood mpv sports all kinds of outputs, you can do zooming, pannign, cropping, color controls, sub delays etc. with a single key press.
                      Having config file 99% of the time I just click video in file manager, rest 1% are when I have to know some verbose information from console, or when I want to watch streams.
                      With all what you need is video frame on your screen you can do fine without UI but maybe with some floating OSD for necessary info.

                      With web browser my main necessity is proper webpage layout, images and fonts, and for that even QtWebkitDemo will do, I dont need mail clients, rss readers, extensions and stuff. Feel the difference?
                      While we at it I dont need UI either if it will show me properly rendered webpage. You can check it out, its called dwb.

                      Maybe some people like floating through Open File dialogs, or to push Play/Stop buttons, or maybe even reading About screens. To each their own I guess.

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