Moonlight: Yet Another Linux Desktop Environment

[jwilliams]

Do people really not understand the difference between journalism and reporting? Have people been so conditioned to only accept "official" press releases as "news", and should be reported as is; without comment, investigation, or analysis?

http://www.theguardian.com/media/gre...sandpublishing

Are you claiming that someone reporting their opinion (without any supporting evidence) in a news article is practicing good journalism? Because if so, you clearly do not understand even the article that you linked to.

[jwilliams]

Or he could report the news and at the end of the article write: My opinion about this news: followed by his opinion.

That would be okay, I guess. I'd much prefer he actually did some investigation and backed up his opinions with quotes from experts or actual evidence. But I don't think Michael really cares about good journalism. He just wants to get as many low-quality articles as possible to increase his traffic.

[mrugiero]

My laptop running 10.10 had better battery life than Windows. After 11.04, I was getting 1 hour less battery life when compared to Windows. That is a regression. It was partly Unity's fault, but it also had to do with the serious linux kernel regressions that were found and widely reported on Phoronix at the time. Things have greatly improved since then (Unity is much less of PITA to use), but I am yet to see pre-11.04 levels of performance or battery life.

First, you said "Linux", so you have to disregard differences caused by different DEs. Ubuntu and Linux aren't the same thing. Second, those regressions were also fixed. This kind of regression come and go, it's just how software development works. You notice it a bit less in Windows because they are more conservative inside releases, the big changes only make it between versions, but they do have regressions too, and they do fix them, too.

As for supported configurations, Dota2 won't even run without bumblebee. Even Valve's official instructions ask Optimus users to install primus to run Steam. Linux today, simply does not support Nvidia hybrid graphics (or Nvidia doesn't support linux).

And if those are official Valve instructions, you go bug Valve, you don't bug "Linux". Valve is supporting that configuration, not Ubuntu. If Ubuntu were to support Primus, they would make it explicit, as they do with any other package. A quick review let's me see it's not supported, so you bug Valve.
On NVIDIA hybrid graphics, you get again, was it supported in 2010? Otherwise, it's not a regression, it's a missing feature, and I acknowledged in my original post that we still have a lot of things to do, and that it doesn't mean we are going backwards. Linux does have all the infrastructure needed for that support, but it's inside the kernel. NVIDIA needs to write a proper wrapper to avoid infringing the GPL, or to release part of their driver, if they want Optimus support on Linux.

I hate Windows for it inflexibility (eg: the user folder must be in the c: drive for Windows not to break) and stupidity as much as every one else . But I have to admit, Windows has certainly gotten better over the years (in my personal experience).

And Linux has become better over the years, too. Well, "Linux", Linux is just a kernel. XFCE doesn't bring me any problem, Firefox never did to me what you describe, not even with a 1GB machine, and driver support is certainly better.
On Windows inflexibility, although it IS inflexible in other areas, you picked a bad example. You can, and it's not that hard to do, have your user folder outside of the C: drive. I did it a few weeks ago in a friend's computer because it had the weirdest partition scheme. It barely fitted the Windows installation in the system partition.

I wont go that far. but I will say that Windows desktop today is far ahead of the Linux desktop- which in my opinion was not true a couple of years ago.

WUT? It's still far ahead, but REALLY, it wasn't true a couple of years ago? I can't believe what I'm reading. Most people were afraid to install Linux a couple of years ago, as they had chances against them to have their hardware supported.

[mrugiero]

A crashed WM will allow you to save your work. Not a DE. You're DE goes down you're done. I think you're the one confused. I'm done with you. Keep your linux hopes alive on the desktop though, maybe in another 20 years it'll actually happen.

A DE is a WM, a panel, a desktop program, usually a wallpaper handler. The whole DE can crash. X is still alive, and your apps too. Maybe you mean a toolkit caused crash, that would bring down most of your programs with it?
And it's not a matter of hope, it's a matter of facts. Things didn't really get *worse* since 2010. I've been pointing out facts you can prove by yourself. If you want, I can also provide links to git commits, changelogs, Phoronix articles, backing up this point. You are the one claiming desktop is regressing, so prove it. To prove my point I don't even need to prove it got *better*, just that it's no worse.

[FLHerne]

WUT? It's still far ahead, but REALLY, it wasn't true a couple of years ago? I can't believe what I'm reading. Most people were afraid to install Linux a couple of years ago, as they had chances against them to have their hardware supported.

More than a couple of years, but Vista and in particular Win7 patched over a lot of the obvious-to-end-users problems with Windows. The latter (and even Vista SP1) is stable, reasonably secure in normal use, and very intuitive to use for existing Windows users.
Meanwhile, the major Linux DEs (KDE, GNOME, Unity starting from scratch) ran into a Win8-style trap a couple of years earlier than MS - massively redesigning the interface in ways that many users disliked, and in the process dropping the focus on stability. Early KDE4, GNOME3 and Unity were awful, and the latter two still haven't finished polishing their new UIs.

So while I think Linux rates better against Windows than 2 years ago - the big DE changes have settled down and Win8 has its own issues - I think we're still no better off than where we were 4 years back.

[sarmad]

Way to report news.

I was thinking the same here. This is not news, this is opinion.

[mrugiero]

More than a couple of years, but Vista and in particular Win7 patched over a lot of the obvious-to-end-users problems with Windows. The latter (and even Vista SP1) is stable, reasonably secure in normal use, and very intuitive to use for existing Windows users.
Meanwhile, the major Linux DEs (KDE, GNOME, Unity starting from scratch) ran into a Win8-style trap a couple of years earlier than MS - massively redesigning the interface in ways that many users disliked, and in the process dropping the focus on stability. Early KDE4, GNOME3 and Unity were awful, and the latter two still haven't finished polishing their new UIs.

So while I think Linux rates better against Windows than 2 years ago - the big DE changes have settled down and Win8 has its own issues - I think we're still no better off than where we were 4 years back.

I don't think we are much better in the DE department either. I personally don't like the newer interfaces (that's one of the reasons I use XFCE), but that's a world of difference from having regressed. As for stability, I don't know the other desktops, I don't use them. I use XFCE, and it's rock solid. I used LXDE for a long time, and it was rock solid. The other user generalizes "Linux", so I can extend my experience as well. I don't know which DEs he uses, he mentioned Unity, which has nothing to do with Linux in general, as Ubuntu is the only distribution officially using it. You could add Arch, extra officially, and that's it, so I'd hardly derive my opinion on how *Linux* DEs does behave from Unity.
Also, four years ago they were pressed by the opposite criticism: they were too stagnant, too hard for new users. I don't know what users expected from that criticism. How is anyone expected to get better without changing? IMO, they pushed it there. I don't like the results, but I didn't share the view of Linux desktops being too hard, either.

[nedR]

First, you said "Linux", so you have to disregard differences caused by different DEs. Ubuntu and Linux aren't the same thing. Second, those regressions were also fixed. This kind of regression come and go, it's just how software development works. You notice it a bit less in Windows because they are more conservative inside releases, the big changes only make it between versions, but they do have regressions too, and they do fix them, too.

I should have made myself clearer. When i say linux - I meant the linux desktop ecosystem. Like i said, I have never seen battery performance as good as i used to in Ubuntu 10.10.

You notice it a bit less in Windows because they are more conservative inside releases, the big changes only make it between versions, but they do have regressions too, and they do fix them, too.

I never said Windows doesn't have regressions. I said Windows today is lot less frustrating experience than on linux. Maybe Linux distros should take a leaf and be more conservative on their release cycles as well.

And if those are official Valve instructions, you go bug Valve, you don't bug "Linux". Valve is supporting that configuration, not Ubuntu. If Ubuntu were to support Primus, they would make it explicit, as they do with any other package. A quick review let's me see it's not supported, so you bug Valve.
On NVIDIA hybrid graphics, you get again, was it supported in 2010? Otherwise, it's not a regression, it's a missing feature, and I acknowledged in my original post that we still have a lot of things to do, and that it doesn't mean we are going backwards. Linux does have all the infrastructure needed for that support, but it's inside the kernel. NVIDIA needs to write a proper wrapper to avoid infringing the GPL, or to release part of their driver, if they want Optimus support on Linux.

I never said that a regression occured in Nvidia Optimus. And Valve is putting all their weight behind supporting Ubuntu. And yet they fail. That bodes badly for gaming on linux. I just wish Nvidia and the kernel guy would find a way to set aside or at least work around their differences, to help alleviate the misery of nvidia users. All this politics is just bs.

And Linux has become better over the years, too. Well, "Linux", Linux is just a kernel. XFCE doesn't bring me any problem, Firefox never did to me what you describe, not even with a 1GB machine, and driver support is certainly better.

Sure in some areas, Linux has become more better. But not in Frame rates of games or battery life.

On Windows inflexibility, although it IS inflexible in other areas, you picked a bad example. You can, and it's not that hard to do, have your user folder outside of the C: drive. I did it a few weeks ago in a friend's computer because it had the weirdest partition scheme. It barely fitted the Windows installation in the system partition.

Well prepare to hear from your friend again when he is looking to upgrade to Windows 8.1

WUT? It's still far ahead, but REALLY, it wasn't true a couple of years ago? I can't believe what I'm reading. Most people were afraid to install Linux a couple of years ago, as they had chances against them to have their hardware supported.

Not in my (limited) experience. I find that Ubuntu supported more out of my old Dell Inspiron than my new Acer. All that is probably more due to changes in new hardware (wireless-n, Nvidia hybrid graphics) than changes in Ubuntu.

[nedR]

And Ubuntu's "default configuration" for nvidia hybrid graphics is to turn my laptop in to a bread toaster.

[mrugiero]

I should have made myself clearer. When i say linux - I meant the linux desktop ecosystem. Like i said, I have never seen battery performance as good as i used to in Ubuntu 10.10.

Ubuntu and desktop Linux aren't the same thing. I know we are talking about desktop already.

I never said Windows doesn't have regressions. I said Windows today is lot less frustrating experience than on linux. Maybe Linux distros should take a leaf and be more conservative on their release cycles as well.

Try Debian stable, or any other stability focused distribution. As for the comment on regressions, you mentioned regressions in the kernel (regressions which were fixed) on the battery life issues, that's why I had to mention Windows has regressions too.
Also, I'm not saying Linux isn't more frustrating than Windows (believe me, I know about OS-caused frustration), I said LINUX HASN'T BECOME MORE FRUSTRATING THAN BEFORE!! Please read it.

I never said that a regression occured in Nvidia Optimus. And Valve is putting all their weight behind supporting Ubuntu. And yet they fail. That bodes badly for gaming on linux. I just wish Nvidia and the kernel guy would find a way to set aside or at least work around their differences, to help alleviate the misery of nvidia users. All this politics is just bs.

You said the Linux desktop regressed, and that's the only thing I argued with you, so what am I supposed to expect if you use Optimus and Dota 2 as arguments? I think I should assume you are taking them as signs of those perceived regressions, because that's the context in which it is mentioned.
Also, Valve is not putting all their weight behind supporting Ubuntu, they are putting their weight on supporting their own platform, SteamOS, which is not even based off of Ubuntu.
On the NVIDIA-kernel conflict, is quite simple to fix. They can release their kernel part as a free module. It won't be included upstream, obviously, as it is only used by a proprietary driver and kernel devs don't want to (and don't really have a reason to) maintain that code, and they don't even have all the tools (they need the source code of the user space driver to understand what fails, whenever it fails). If NVIDIA likes the proprietary model, that's great for them, but they should take the responsibility of maintaining all of their code. That's how closed source models work, period. Another option is to help the nouveau project, but that's not likely to happen.

Sure in some areas, Linux has become more better. But not in Frame rates of games or battery life.

Are you positive about that? There are plenty of benchmarks on Phoronix that say otherwise. Also, you do realize you are changing the subject, do you?
I answered to your Firefox problem, and then you went out of your way to mention a different issue.

Well prepare to hear from your friend again when he is looking to upgrade to Windows 8.1

She won't. She's not looking for a new computer, and nobody would install even Windows 8 if they don't have to.

Not in my (limited) experience. I find that Ubuntu supported more out of my old Dell Inspiron than my new Acer. All that is probably more due to changes in new hardware (wireless-n, Nvidia hybrid graphics) than changes in Ubuntu.

Let me understand this. You are talking different hardware and calling regressions. Have you tried Ubuntu 10.10 on your new Acer? Have you tried Ubuntu (well, maybe another flavor, as Unity is probably too heavy for older computers) 13.10 in your old Dell? That's how you spot regressions, not randomly changing the hardware. A regression is when something that worked correctly quits working correctly. For that, you need to compare it in the same context, otherwise it's meaningless.
Also, if you recognize it's more due to changes in hardware than in Ubuntu, how you still call your problems regressions? Please note that I'm not denying your problems, I'm fully aware Linux as a desktop platform still has a LOT of problems, but I'm just not buying the whole "it's worse than before" deal. Specifically, Acer doesn't seem like the most Linux friendly manufacturer (and it's probably one more line on the list of Linux's problems: we still have to talk about Linux friendly and unfriendly manufacturers), while Dell is one of them, so it probably has a lot to do with how well supported was your computer out of the box.