KDE's Krita Ported To OpenGL 3.1, OpenGL ES 2.0

[dee.]

Wacom is actually the minority in this case, being they are just 1 of the 4 or 5 major tablet manufacturers out there, so right now Krita only supports a small subset of available tablets. Nearly every other tablet on the market relies on evdev for Linux support, so it is a big issue having Qt ho-hum about it for so long.

Except that all professionals use Wacom because it's simply the best tablet around for professional work. Now where do you think all the funding comes for the Krita project... professional studios that are willing to pay them for support for their Studio version, or from penniless hobbyists who can't afford decent tablets...?

[IanS]

If you use Linux, you should get a Wacom anyway. All other tablets pretty much have horrible Linux support.

As I have said a few times now, my generic tablet works great with everything besides Krita, and it is on par with a Wacom Intuos3 medium, just at about a 10th of the price they go for.

Except that all professionals use Wacom because it's simply the best tablet around for professional work. Now where do you think all the funding comes for the Krita project... professional studios that are willing to pay them for support for their Studio version, or from penniless hobbyists who can't afford decent tablets...?

Wacoms are over-priced and over-hyped, just like Macs which are also popular with the stupid and trendy "pros" who tend to be more about looks and branding than about technical merits and responsible spending. Also, whatever money that has gone to Krita has clearly not gone to supporting any tablets, Wacom or otherwise, as that is handled by Qt and as far as I can tell the Krita devs don't really contribute anything back upstream to Qt for tablet support and they certainly haven't been doing any solutions of their own so far.

For comparison:
Intuos3 Medium
Active Area 8" x 6" (or 11" x 6" for the more expensive wide version)
Pressure 1024 levels
Data Rate 200 pps
Resolution 5080 lpi
price: ~$400

Monoprice 10x6.25
Active Area 10" x 6.25"
Pressure 1024 levels
Data Rate 200 pps
Resolution 4000 lpi
price: ~$50 (~$40 when I bought it)

[dee.]

As I have said a few times now, my generic tablet works great with everything besides Krita, and it is on par with a Wacom Intuos3 medium, just at about a 10th of the price they go for.



Wacoms are over-priced and over-hyped, just like Macs which are also popular with the stupid and trendy "pros" who tend to be more about looks and branding than about technical merits and responsible spending. Also, whatever money that has gone to Krita has clearly not gone to supporting any tablets, Wacom or otherwise, as that is handled by Qt and as far as I can tell the Krita devs don't really contribute anything back upstream to Qt for tablet support and they certainly haven't been doing any solutions of their own so far.

My Wacom tablets have always worked flawlessly in Krita. No problems whatsoever. The same is true for GIMP and Inkscape, and for me, they work at the same time with the mouse, I can switch between on the fly without using any menu options. So you see, Wacom tablets really are the only ones that have really proper support in Linux.

For comparison:
Intuos3 Medium
Active Area 8" x 6" (or 11" x 6" for the more expensive wide version)
Pressure 1024 levels
Data Rate 200 pps
Resolution 5080 lpi
price: ~$400

Monoprice 10x6.25
Active Area 10" x 6.25"
Pressure 1024 levels
Data Rate 200 pps
Resolution 4000 lpi
price: ~$50 (~$40 when I bought it)

I don't know where you get the Intuos3 price from, because they're not being manufactured, they're not even being sold anymore (except maybe on ebay or some store that has some REALLY old stock to get rid of)... For that matter, I paid 200? for my Intuos4 medium, from Wacom's own store.

Intuos3 is a very old model (the current ones are Intuos5), and are almost comparable to modern-day Bamboos, which you can get for about the same price as the Monoprice tablets.

Furthermore, I've heard a lot of stories about the Monoprice tablets being of poor quality and sometimes breaking fast. You also can't just look a list of numbers (numbers reported by the manufacturer, even...) and make conclusions about those. There are other factors here:

- Wacom tablets don't require batteries, which makes the pens lighter, and is much more convenient when you don't have to keep swapping them (same reason I never buy cordless mice, I hate swapping batteries)
- Wacom tablets are exceptionally responsive and accurate
- Intuos4-tablets support not only 2048 levels of pressure sensitivity, but also +/-60? of tilt sensitivity (a must feature for serious artists), and if you really want to get fancy and add in the art pen stylus, you'll also get rotation sensitivity (which sadly doesn't yet have much support in most software, but still).
- Intuos styluses support multiple different types of nibs, ranging from soft and hard regular nibs to flexible nibs to better simulate the feel of a paintbrush to felt nibs (my favorite).

Now, Wacom tablets are not without flaws, such as the surface wearing easily in Intuos4 (not a huge issue, as you can get replacement sheets) and nibs wearing out relatively fast (except felt nibs, which are almost immune to wear). But they're minor issues compared to the quality you get. Plus, Wacom tablets have exceptional Linux support, which no other tablet can say.

Maybe there will some day be a serious contender for Wacom tablets, but that day hasn't arrived yet. Wacom is so far still the unchallenged champion of graphics tablets. It sucks, I know, but sometimes you really DO get what you pay for.

[IanS]

...

Hey, whatever you got to tell yourself to be convinced you didn't get bent over a barrel by Wacom. All I can tell you is that from personal experience working with a few Wacoms (an Intuos 2 Large and Intuos 4 medium owned by one of my old roommates) and the past year and a half using this Monoprice tablet is that for me the Monoprice performed better than the Intuos2 and I couldn't tell the difference between it and the Intuos4 which does have better specs. Once you get over a certain level there just really isn't any way to feel the difference anymore.

Even when doing quick sketches I can't feel any lag at all at 200 points per second. Then for the resolution, 4k lines per inch is already overkill to the point that it doesn't matter anymore; going over that isn't going to gain you anything. My screen is about 12" tall and the vertical dimension of my display is 1200 pixels, so 100 rows of pixels per inch. The tablet drawing area is just over 6 inches tall that means the drawing area maps to roughly 2k lines per inch of my screen, or about 20 rows per pixel row in the display. Even if that tablet was as low as 1k lpi resolution I probably couldn't tell the difference between that and 4k because what's actually the difference between 5 rows per pixel and 20 rows? It might be 4 times as much, but it is 4 times more of almost nothing. So once again adding even more is not going to make a jot of difference in how the tablet feels to you. Pressure sensitivity is normally mapped to an editable curve in practically every program that makes use of it, so you can get almost identical results from a 512 as you do from a 2048, though the 512 may actually be smoother because it's doing more interpolating. 1024 is a nice middle ground, and I can't see any gains from going higher as once again we are already in the realm of diminishing returns.

As for the stylus, tilt is more of a gimmick than anything. I couldn't find any good use for it while using my roommates tablet. Maybe if you were trained in airbrush work it could be useful, but really, how many people fall into that category? As to the battery, I like that slight bit more weight, it gave the stylus a better feel in my hand, I always thought the Wacom's stylus was too light, but that is a personal preference thing. What isn't just preference though is the fact that a battery powered stylus can be more responsive as the tablet can be in constant receiving mode as it doesn't have to cycle like the passive ones do which was an issue with early Walcoms and even the fairly "cheap" bamboos from not long ago; they are more prone to get a jitter in the input. The battery life is pretty remarkable in this thing too; as I have said I am still using the same battery that came with this tablet. Even if you were to use this thing several times more often then I do I would find it hard to believe anyone going through more than 2-4 batteries a year.

As to the build quality, the tablet itself is surprisingly rugged; I toss it in my bag or suitcase when I need to take it places and I haven't had an issue yet. The surface is very durable I can't see any noticable scratches or marks on it after all this time. The pen is a bit cheap though, but it has held up well so far. Though if it does break the replacements are about $10, compare that to the Wacom replacement stylus which tends to cost more than my tablet.

BUt hey, you clearly don't want to be swayed in your opinion; I'm cool with that. Enjoy your "unchallenged champion of graphics tablets" and I'll keep enjoying mine and the 300+ dollars I was able to keep in my pocket.

[EDIT: Forgot to mention, GIMP and Inkscape do use my tablet and mouse interchangably without changing any settings beyond the initial configuration. For like the 3rd or 4th time in this thread let me say that the issue is that the dialog the GTK stuff uses disables other pointing devices when you click the option to enable the tablet, so you just click on the other options such as the mouse and re-enable them before saving, then everything works fine together.]

[dee.]

Once you get over a certain level there just really isn't any way to feel the difference anymore.

Yeah ok, you keep telling yourself that... a 1972 volkswagen golf and a ferrari are both cars, they both get you from place A to place B, but that's where the similarities stop.

I couldn't tell the difference

It's called "confirmation bias", mixed in with some post-purchase rationalization...

Even when doing quick sketches I can't feel any lag at all at 200 points per second. Then for the resolution, 4k lines per inch is already overkill to the point that it doesn't matter anymore; going over that isn't going to gain you anything. My screen is about 12" tall and the vertical dimension of my display is 1200 pixels, so 100 rows of pixels per inch. The tablet drawing area is just over 6 inches tall that means the drawing area maps to roughly 2k lines per inch of my screen, or about 20 rows per pixel row in the display. Even if that tablet was as low as 1k lpi resolution I probably couldn't tell the difference between that and 4k because what's actually the difference between 5 rows per pixel and 20 rows? It might be 4 times as much, but it is 4 times more of almost nothing. So once again adding even more is not going to make a jot of difference in how the tablet feels to you.

Ok I have to say now you really don't know what you're talking about. First of all when you need to do some fine linework, every pixel counts. Second of all, the resolution of your screen doesn't matter AT ALL. When you need to do print quality work - which is usually AT LEAST 300 dpi, and sometimes you may need to do up to 600 dpi - then you'll really need all the accuracy you can get. The best large screens don't even go up to 300 dpi.

And it's not all about the resolution, either. Low-end tablets like the monoprice or bamboos might be fine for your basic hobbyist needs, and if that's all you need it for then you don't need anything better. But if you need to do professional-quality work then you need professional-quality equipment. Low-end tablets become sadly lacking when it comes to doing pro-quality work.

And I can see the difference in pressure sensitivity CLEARLY between my old bamboo with 1024 levels and my current intuos4 with 2048. Controlling the line width with pressure feels much more flexible and dynamic with the intuos.

As for the stylus, tilt is more of a gimmick than anything. I couldn't find any good use for it while using my roommates tablet.

Yeah, and an average person probably can't think of a use for even a quarter of all the photoshop tools, or even a tenth of all the GIMP plugins. Your point?

Not to mention that the tilt recognition improves the overall accuracy of the tablet.

As to the battery, I like that slight bit more weight

Wow, the lengths some people go to rationalize... quite impressive mental gymnastics, I have to say. But hey, to each their own...

BUt hey, you clearly don't want to be swayed in your opinion; I'm cool with that.

It's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of majority of profesisonal graphic designers and illustrators, as well. But hey, maybe you're right and everyone who actually gets PAID for doing this stuff are wrong. Who knows, maybe you're a misunderstood genius...

[boudewijnrempt]

Straight from the horse's mouth

That's me.

During the Krita 1.x days we had our own tablet code. It was X11 only and Wacom only and it was a nightmare to maintain.

So for 2.x, we decided to rely on Qt. And yes, Qt doesn't support non-Wacom tablets on Linux. On Windows, they apparently work, and I have no idea about OSX. Qt5 does support evdev-based tablets on Linux. I'm not sure whether Digia has added tablet support on Windows to Qt5 yet. There's also a patch for Qt 4 that makes the evdev tablets work on X11, and I have no idea why Digia doesn't incorporate that patch or a version of it. I guess their commercial customers, like Autodesk, don't have any customers that use non-wacom tablets.

The Krita project also doesn't have access to the hardware. the KDE community collected money to get the Krita project to Wacom Intuos3 tablets. I already had a Wacom Graphire -- and those are the three tablets we have. Nobody has donated a yiynova or monoprice tablet to us, so we have no incentive to start digging into the Qt contribution process to try and shepherd that patch into Qt4 -- which would be unlikely to happen anyway, because everything is about Qt5 now!

And then, going forward, I doubt that we as a developer community have the time, resources and knowledge to start supporting our own cross-platform, cross-tablet-type support code, either separately, or within Qt. But who knows... If the Krita Development Fund (http://krita.org/support-krita) takes off, it might happen, or if people pay KO to start supporting non-Wacom tablets...

[IanS]

I'm about done with this thread, not really any more to say about Krita or tablets that hasn't been beaten to death already, but found this review of the Monoprice tablets that may interest some:

http://frenden.com/post/31659364200/the-little-monoprice-graphics-tablet-that-could

[duby229]

By all means, I have no clue what you guys are talking about.

This device is not a tablet like what what I'm thinking is it? It's not a standalone device with it's own operating system is it? Hell for 50 bucks that would be a fantastic deal.

I'm thinking it is more like just a pad that can be used to draw on right?

[IanS]

By all means, I have no clue what you guys are talking about.

This device is not a tablet like what what I'm thinking is it? It's not a standalone device with it's own operating system is it? Hell for 50 bucks that would be a fantastic deal.

I'm thinking it is more like just a pad that can be used to draw on right?

Yes, graphic tablets are mainly just a digital drawing device, you use a pen-like stylus to draw on a surface that maps to your screen. Though some are also integrated directly into a LCD screen so you can have an experience that is closer in feel to traditional work done on paper or canvas. They tend to hook up to your computer via a USB cable, though the LCD ones would also need to be plugged into your graphics card as they are still just a monitor for the most part, just with a digitizer behind the screen.

[IanS]

I really did want to put this behind me, I really did. I read your asinine replies and realized there was nothing to gain from continuing this, but I can't help myself on these two points below as leaving them be would just allow your stupid to infect others who take these statements at face value.

Ok I have to say now you really don't know what you're talking about. First of all when you need to do some fine linework, every pixel counts. Second of all, the resolution of your screen doesn't matter AT ALL. When you need to do print quality work - which is usually AT LEAST 300 dpi, and sometimes you may need to do up to 600 dpi - then you'll really need all the accuracy you can get. The best large screens don't even go up to 300 dpi.
...
And I can see the difference in pressure sensitivity CLEARLY between my old bamboo with 1024 levels and my current intuos4 with 2048. Controlling the line width with pressure feels much more flexible and dynamic with the intuos.

First off image dpi doesn't mean jack shit to the tablet. The tablet can map to a program's bounds or it can map to a screen's bounds; it does not map to a document. My figures given were accurate for how the tablet maps to my monitor, I am using the max resolution this screen can support and there is no way to modify the tablets resolution so it is very easy to work out fairly concrete numbers for how they map to each other. When you need finer detail work added to your image you zoom in on the image and draw the detail at the scale that is comfortable for you. DPI only affects how large the image is relative to your screen's resolution, and is used for the true printing size but has nothing at all to do with the tablet.

Second, as to your Bamboo, there are two very likely reasons for that. First is that the bamboos have a much lower pps (points per second) rate, which is also often refered to as rps (reports per second); this is how many packets are sent to your computer from the tablet each second. It sends the sylus position as well as the pressure and tilt all together in each packet, so lower pps doesn't just add a delay between you moving the stylus and your stroke appearing on the screen, but it also affects the accuracy of your pressure data as it will drop some of your pressure changes. The other obvious thing to check would be your pressure curve settings for the tablet as Wacoms in general tend to have crap defaults, if you don't take the time to fine tune them you will get crap results.