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Fedora Proposal To Use Cinnamon Desktop By Default

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  • Hamish, thank you for bringing some actual grown up debating to this "discussion".
    I think you summarized my views quite nicely, in a way that was much better than I did myself.

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    • Another lovely day in gnome dream land, lalalala.

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      • Hamish Wilson, in order to save time and avoid an endless back and forth about irrelevant topics, I am not going to directly refute every one of your statements. I just want to clarify a couple things.

        The first is, what is it exactly you believe my motivations are? I've made it pretty clear that the reason I'm posting here is because I do not care for Gnome Shell and would like Cinnamon (or a similar DE) to be the default. I happen to believe that Gnome Shell does not provide the features that most people need in a default desktop. If that is a problem for you, then I suggest you review your own motivations and assumptions.

        On the topic of Fedora, I probably didn't make myself very clear. My point was that Gnome Shell does not have majority adoption, being at less than 40%. Together Cinnamon, MATE and XFCE make up a slightly smaller but equally relevant share. This is the highest adoption for Gnome Shell, with the other distributions showing much worse numbers. That matters when compared to historical levels of Gnome adoption. It is obvious that the polls have limited use, they can only predict the popularity of each desktop environment, or lack thereof, among people who actually took the poll. That does not make them completely useless for gauging reception.

        That said, feel free to reject all of the provided data and observations that have been shared in this forum without providing any of your own.

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        • Originally posted by thalaric View Post
          they can only predict the popularity of each desktop environment, or lack thereof, among people who actually took the poll. That does not make them completely useless for gauging reception.
          I'm glad you at least recognize what I said earlier.
          Unfortunately "Not completely useless" and "useful" are not the same thing
          But if we want to throw meaningless numbers around, you can take the Phoronix poll. I find that poll completely useless, just as the other polls, but I guess you would categorize it differently, so let's look at the data: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...2012_res&num=1

          "Which of the following most resemble your dekstop?"
          GNOME2+GNOME3: 993 (60%)
          Unity: 198
          KDE: 201
          Other: 260

          "What is the latest version of GNOME you are using?"
          3.x: 2986 (68%)
          2.x: 436
          Not using it: 947

          What conclusions can we draw from this?
          Well, none, because the poll, like most random Internet polls is badly done.
          But if we, just for the sake of argument, pretend that the numbers are actually an approximation of reality...
          These numbers are at least to me not something that screams "GNOME is dying!". Actually quite the opposite. GNOME seems to be doing pretty good.
          Also note that this is a poll hosted by Phoronix (not made by), and pretty much made to show how bad GNOME3 is doing. So I think we can quite safely assume that any bias would be *against* GNOME with regards to the demographics.
          Last edited by kigurai; 01-31-2013, 07:27 AM. Reason: negations, negations

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          • Originally posted by kigurai View Post
            But if we want to throw meaningless numbers around, you can take the Phoronix poll. I find that poll completely useless, just as the other polls, but I guess you would categorize it differently, so let's look at the data
            Some are better than others, and anything lacking the words "Gnome Shell" is less useful. However we can take some things away from this poll just like the others. What I can't figure out is why you added Gnome2 and Gnome3 together.

            The real numbers are (adjusting for win and mac):

            Gnome3 666/1655 [40.24%]
            Gnome Not Gnome3 528/1655 [31.90%]

            It's almost looks like Fedora logged into phoronix.

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            • Originally posted by thalaric View Post
              Some are better than others, and anything lacking the words "Gnome Shell" is less useful. However we can take some things away from this poll just like the others. What I can't figure out is why you added Gnome2 and Gnome3 together.

              The real numbers are (adjusting for win and mac):

              Gnome3 666/1655 [40.24%]
              Gnome Not Gnome3 528/1655 [31.90%]

              It's almost looks like Fedora logged into phoronix.
              So 40% instead of 60% then. I can give you that. I'd still say a 40% market share considering the number of alternative DE's is quite impressive.
              Hypothetically of course, since the poll is useless.

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              • Relax Gnome Shell users and fans. The shitstorm is almost over. Mate, Cinnamon and Consort will fill the Gnome 2 sucessor role nicely. In a year nobody will give a damn about what functionality has been removed from the Shell...

                I am somewhat surprised about the poweroff change and the classic mode talk to be honest. But please don't see this as critique, just stating my personal opinion. Stay true to your vision Shell guys. You have got a brand to create!

                Former Gnome 2, now Xfce user.

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                • Originally posted by thalaric View Post
                  The first is, what is it exactly you believe my motivations are? I've made it pretty clear that the reason I'm posting here is because I do not care for Gnome Shell and would like Cinnamon (or a similar DE) to be the default. I happen to believe that Gnome Shell does not provide the features that most people need in a default desktop. If that is a problem for you, then I suggest you review your own motivations and assumptions.
                  On the face of it you wanting Cinnamon to be the default is not an issue. I am also annoyed that I have to toggle Crtl-Alt-Backspace manually now in my Xorg.conf in order to get a desktop I feel comfortable with. However, there is an undercurrent in this thread which does go beyond you and that is what is making me upset here, which I have already well explored in my past statements. The fact that people feel they can not work with the project even though they have now been given several ample ways of doing show is indicative of this, when it mostly seems to be a matter of egos on both sides.

                  For years there have been people who wished for KDE to be the default desktop on Fedora (and for awhile KDE was suggested to be the most popular desktop in polls to). And yet, despite our disagreements, I have yet to see this level of uproar from the KDE camp for the most part. As I have said numerous times, it is up to the Fedora Project Board to determine which desktop best suits there vision for their project as default (which does not actually mean much anyway) and they have certainly seen some value in what is going on with Shell. Want to do something constructive and easily within your reach? Try getting people together to make a dedicated Cinnamon spin of Fedora. It is in the package repositories in Fedora 18 already. It would not be that hard.

                  Originally posted by thalaric View Post
                  On the topic of Fedora, I probably didn't make myself very clear. My point was that Gnome Shell does not have majority adoption, being at less than 40%. Together Cinnamon, MATE and XFCE make up a slightly smaller but equally relevant share. This is the highest adoption for Gnome Shell, with the other distributions showing much worse numbers. That matters when compared to historical levels of Gnome adoption. It is obvious that the polls have limited use, they can only predict the popularity of each desktop environment, or lack thereof, among people who actually took the poll. That does not make them completely useless for gauging reception.
                  Not completely useless, but still pretty useless. As an Xfce user I can also tell you I do not appreciate you lumping Cinnamon, MATE, and Xfce in the same category as they are much different desktops with very different goals. I personally really dislike the look of Cinnamon, and could not imagine using it as my main desktop (which does not make unusable or anything like many here assert against Shell), but I am quite happy with the direction that Xfce is taking. Also, what about these polls suggests that Cinnamon should be the default for you (at 8.33% on the FedorForum)? Gnome is more extendable than Cinnamon with a greater and more active development community, and with the Classic Mode in 3.8 the next release of Fedora is already going to have a Classic Mode available on start up (based on the limited markups I have seen). So they already have most of the benefits of having Cinnamon by default by virtue of that.

                  Originally posted by thalaric View Post
                  That said, feel free to reject all of the provided data and observations that have been shared in this forum without providing any of your own.
                  I think even you can agree that I have been providing plenty of observations on this subject thalaric. And your data is only as useful as the conclusions that can be drawn from it.
                  Last edited by Hamish Wilson; 01-31-2013, 01:46 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by Pawlerson View Post
                    It couldn't be said better. It's so true and sad about them. Furthermore, they're just perfect example of an iphone syndrome I've pointed before. It's quite funny to see gnome ruining itself.
                    Because you don't use it? Why should they care? Are you a big provider of funds or something?

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                    • Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                      On the face of it you wanting Cinnamon to be the default is not an issue. I am also annoyed that I have to toggle Crtl-Alt-Backspace manually now in my Xorg.conf in order to get a desktop I feel comfortable with. However, there is an undercurrent in this thread which does go beyond you and that is what is making me upset here, which I have already well explored in my past statements. The fact that people feel they can not work with the project even though they have now been given several ample ways of doing show is indicative of this, when it mostly seems to be a matter of egos on both sides.
                      That's because it is not possible to work with the project. Their policy has been to reject all additions that don't meet the criteria of their design documents, and indeed to remove existing functionality and mark requests to address them as WONTFIX.

                      Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                      For years there have been people who wished for KDE to be the default desktop on Fedora (and for awhile KDE was suggested to be the most popular desktop in polls to). And yet, despite our disagreements, I have yet to see this level of uproar from the KDE camp for the most part. As I have said numerous times, it is up to the Fedora Project Board to determine which desktop best suits there vision for their project as default (which does not actually mean much anyway) and they have certainly seen some value in what is going on with Shell. Want to do something constructive and easily within your reach? Try getting people together to make a dedicated Cinnamon spin of Fedora. It is in the package repositories in Fedora 18 already. It would not be that hard.
                      During the time when Gnome was selected as default desktop on Ubuntu and Fedora it was a similarly positioned desktop to KDE with similar metaphors. Gnome Shell is not a traditional desktop, it is a complete departure. Since it uses inefficient metaphors from mobile computing, users of Fedora would be better served by any other desktop, KDE included. I do not feel comfortable advocating Fedora to new people because of the default experience. A Cinnamon spin might help some, but I doubt it would be placed prominently enough to prevent incoming users from stumbling into the mess that is Gnome Shell and the backlash that I've experienced from that, anecdotally. Obviously some people react differently to it, but none that I personally have met.

                      Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                      Not completely useless, but still pretty useless. As an Xfce user I can also tell you I do not appreciate you lumping Cinnamon, MATE, and Xfce in the same category as they are much different desktops with very different goals. I personally really dislike the look of Cinnamon, and could not imagine using it as my main desktop (which does not make unusable or anything like many here assert against Shell), but I am quite happy with the direction that Xfce is taking. Also, what about these polls suggests that Cinnamon should be the default for you (at 8.33% on the FedorForum)? Gnome is more extendable than Cinnamon with a greater and more active development community, and with the Classic Mode in 3.8 the next release of Fedora is already going to have a Classic Mode available on start up (based on the limited markups I have seen). So they already have most of the benefits of having Cinnamon by default by virtue of that.
                      They are all traditional desktop environments for the purpose of this debate. Cinnamon has the same underpinnings of Gnome Shell, since it was forked from Gnome Shell. It has the same advanced features (compiz style hot corner) extensions, keybindings, etc. but is a traditional desktop that can be configured to taste. If you don't like the default theme there are others. It is not true that Gnome Shell is more extendible, in fact Cinnamon can be extended in nearly an identical way and has a easier to use applet plugin system. Gnome Shell style extensions can be ported to it by changing a few resource calls in the extension. Unfortunately, MATE and XFCE are Gnome2 based. The only desktop that might be positioned better as a default for Gnome3 is Consort, and it has just been announced with no packages released yet.

                      Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                      I think even you can agree that I have been providing plenty of observations on this subject thalaric. And your data is only as useful as the conclusions that can be drawn from it.
                      No one said the polls were perfect. Most do not differentiate between Gnome Shell and Fallback mode. In the Phoronix poll KDE was way underrepresented and XFCE was grouped into "Other". Yet, the only observations you've drawn is that "all data is incorrect". The trend remains that Gnome Shell is seeing more resistance from alternative Gnome based desktop environments than I have ever seen before. Not with Gnome2, KDE, or any other DE. As a result of the number of forks, Gnome Shell is less popular than Gnome2 ever was. My assumption is that that trend will continue, not based on data but based on my personal experience with how terrible Gnome Shell is. Feel free to disagree, but then, you don't even use Gnome Shell.

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