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KDE's KWin Gears Up To Advance At Faster Pace

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  • phoronix
    started a topic KDE's KWin Gears Up To Advance At Faster Pace

    KDE's KWin Gears Up To Advance At Faster Pace

    Phoronix: KDE's KWin Gears Up To Advance At Faster Pace

    With the push towards Wayland and other various advancements being desired out of KDE's compositing window manager, Martin Gr??lin is joining Blue Systems to further work on KWin...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTIwMDg

  • dfx.
    replied
    Originally posted by Tyler_K View Post
    Right -- but as you seem to understand yourself, the bottom line is that what you have described is not a KDE issue, but rather is a randr limitation (randr does not currently support multiple Screens within an X Display .... though it most certainly supports multiple monitors attached to a single X Screen within a particular X Display).

    I suppose that the KDE GUI could provide a better explanation as to why it won't work in the case of multiple X display Screens (:0.0, :0.1, ... :0.n), or across Displays (:0.x, :1.x) for that case I guess, but Meh.

    Hopefully, by this time next year, all the hard work that David Airlie is doing towards that end will provide results that many of us wait upon
    damn straught !
    i can't waaaaait till all that nice stuff, GNU/Linux graphics guys doing recently, would be wrapped up into pretty user-friendly "packaging" in distributions, and all the wonders of multiple-outputs virtual screens , independent screens and multi-seat cuncurrent displays, root-less X would be easily accessible without being limited & hidden by static & obscure, driver-specific options and DEs being confused by them.

    oooh... now i just need to figure out why KDE|X began refusing to let cursor unto second screen. and, by the way, X still don't even want to set maximum refresh rate for second monitor automatically, at least the damn thing selects maximum resolution... but, with RandR unavailable, it's either Xinerama with lesser rate, some apps being confused and windows going about willy-nilly or "Zaphod" with second monitor being useless :/
    which also reminds me, that even thought much work been done to ease multi-seat support, there's nothing been heard about easier input devices assaingment beyond usual messing around with xorg.conf. which is too bad.

    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    Just curious, when was the last time you tried using it? 4.7 and 4.8 both had big updates related to Nepomuk and strigi to fix several memory and CPU related issues. After 4.8 hit i've had zero updates with the indexer sucking resources into infinitely, 4.7 had some issues but was better than 4.6 and prior where I would hit the "Sucking up resources until killed" situations every so often.
    i use KDE4 from 4.X to 4.9.2 and occassionally, rarely, tried enabling those things, but don't remember when precisely.
    ocassionaly fucking up entire system, that only quick proper console command could help, is not very tolerable behaviour for such late releases.
    maybe it's not that bad for people who really want something like that, but for me:
    1) being that unrealiable, on addition of being useless for me
    2) _KDE's constant complains_ about it being disabled until not long ago
    drives me nuts every time i have to deal with it.

    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    Phonon I can't really comment on because I havent had any issues with it in a long time. but Kopete was last updated 4 months ago according to the wikipedia article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopete ), though if you check the official kopete website ( http://kopete.kde.org/ ) The last update for it was back in 2008 so maybe its been in maintenance mode since 2008.
    it's not like Kopete completely unmaintainable. it's that Kopete from KDE4 is not made up to par with KDE3 one, but it's improvement been halted at some point.
    just like with most of the rest, KDE guys started implementing strange shit instead of finishing off Qt4 transition.

    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    Gstreamer handles multimedia / codecs
    Alsa handles audio drivers
    Pulse handles audio output
    Avahi handles mdns
    systemd is looking to be the new standard for init and low-level things
    LightDM is looking to be the new login-manager of choice since its lightdm-core + a greeter frontend
    udev handles devices
    NetworkManger handles Network Management (fittingly lol) though it does need bridging support to be fully capable.
    Any new standards or possible standards I'm missing? Standards meaning standard because most distros use them/plan to use them, not because a committee sat down and said "This is the standard" (cant remember which is standard de facto and which is standard de jure, its 2am haha)
    sounds good, but i just wish that Mister P & company would stop hard-conding PA, Sd and NM for their favorite use-cases in detriment to everything and everyone else before starting to try to popularize them.
    LightDM & KMSCon guys look like they know what they doing in comparison. by the way, about KDM - damn thing also regressed in comparison to KDE3, and no-one give much shit about it. and it's damn GUI doesn't even have all the options for it... and why the fuck it's primary config is sitting in /usr ? :\ uh.

    trying out NM in KDE is still a challange of frustration. and i'm a "networking guy", who knows what he's doing.
    setting up & controlling something like PPPoE via PON with it for an ordinary guy is fucking confusing. the its GUI looks like a pretentious WPA Supplicant GUI reject, and its console frontend... maybe i have to see this shit in some binary distros, and not Gentoo, because Gentoo guys clearly not give much fuck about NM and Sd.

    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    Could the crashes simply be related to the KHTML libs not being optimization friendly? Maybe gcc optimized away something important either due to a gcc bug or the style / architecture of the libs.
    most likely. but what's frustrating is that it happened on minor version update. and that apparently akregator have something to do with khtml even when it uses (and it _uses engine set as default in konqueror_)
    webkit. that's fucked up. and those small things are the legion. in _every_ _fucking_ _aspect_ _of_ _KDE4_. and they not only not going away with time and "development" but multiply.

    every time i look at a built-in "Timer" plasmoid on my desktop, i think i see how much provident thought are put into it...
    just look at it's timer settings: instead of an easy way to set up arbitrary countdown time (like giving you an analogue clock picture to click with you mouse on for setting an alarm for desired time, or presenting a dialog to directly put time and then keeping last entered values for fast-input), you have to use contex menu on it to select pre-defined values or to go into settings to set those values, and when you're setting those, your new values go on top (in addition to cluttering the contex menu, of course) of the pile, despite their relation to already available ones (no sorting). so you have to click like _literally >10 time_ _each time_ you're adding a value larger than the last one to sort that shit manually, which doesn't save it from being cluttered and over-complicated, when it has the right to be.
    and you can't delete plasmoids from plasmoid menu in plasma (because it's "plasmoid adding" menu, you see !) either, when those motherfuckers go out of screen's visible area, which may confuse plasma and make it segfault, in addition to eating up resources (like you could with Kicker's addons in addons menu...). and that menu is the hard-to-use horizontal bullshit thingy with 'search' working only for current KDE's locale, not taking vanilla, English names into account, so you have to guess what localizers wrote about plasmoid you need. great...
    and something like that is EVERY-fucking-WHERE ! should i elaborate on how it drives me nuts ? no, i think you see.

    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    Just gonna down the list, mainly just clarifying things for anyone else reading the discussion...
    |SKIPPED|
    it's how they say about Russian politics: "they wanted to do it be better, but they did it like always..."

    i can only hope that Martin isn't into politics much

    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    You said yourself that its decades old X functionality thats breaking some things
    NO, no. i said that it's an old damn thing, which was around for decades... and they still don't take it into account, while it's useful and awesome. its architecture warrants for much improvement for sure, but it exists, works, and they treat it like it's not. because "it's not what most people do & want !".
    well, most people want Windows?, 'antivirus' amulet-of-an-icon and not to give a fuck, until it's too late. that way, everyone is going to be disappointed, but not everyone will get why, at the end.

    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    I wouldnt say I'm happy with KDE4, like theres somethings I wish could be changed, but I am far happier with KDE than I am with Gnome or XCFE or LXDE or any of the *boxes.
    same here, except "happy" = "least angry". but maybe i just too emo nowadays :|

    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    I just wish there was an search applet on the panel similar to OS X's Spotlight where I could just hit it and search instead of having to do alt-f2 when I wanted to do it, im not a fan of keyboard bindings mainly because I forget about them lol
    he-he ! it's just like me and on-Kicker console field/"applet" in KDE3: i used to punch one-string commands occasionally in it, but it was removed in KDE4. i complained to KDE devs, and they said, that "most people don't need it", and i should be getting used to alt+f2. except: it's a piece of shit, that isn't on the screen, when it's needs to be, doesn't accept "complex commands" (it's a god-damn search field and doesn't want to be treated as konsole), and _popping out on a desktop_, when you push any buttons on a keyboard, nothing is in focus at that moment, and obstructs the way. now it doesn't pop out. i don't know is it because they fucking figured that one out, or because i forbidden it via GUI-less config change (but even then, instead of popping out it blocked hotkeys, when nothing is in focus, like it tried to intercept the input anyway), documented somewhere on their site.
    BUT still, it's... you guessed it! - pretty FUCKED the-fuck UP !

    Code:
    ~/.kde4/share/config/kdeglobals:
    [KDE Action Restrictions][$i]
    run_command=false
    Originally posted by Akka View Post
    If you write something when the plasma desktop is in focus, krunner automatically catch the text. If a window is in focus click on the desktop and write and krunner catch the text.
    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    Just tried it, didnt work (KDE 4.9.2-- Arch) There a setting you know of for it? No windows open, clicked the desktop, started typing, krunner didnt pop up.
    sounds like they _did_ figured that one out. trust me, it's for the best.
    or maybe they just have broke by regression that broken-by-design krunner crap too. oh, the irony !
    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    That fixed it. Thanks Akka, I always ran KDE in Folder View (With the folder set to my Home) so I never even knew that was a feature. WIll definitely stick to normal layout now though because I really like that Krunner picks it up automatically
    or that :]
    still, even though nepomuk is disable-able, virtuoso is kill-able, i'm not aware of GUI allowing easily to get rid of that krunner/"searcher" thing, despite hidden option being available, from the looks of it, for quite some time.

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  • Leon55ia
    replied
    I am under the impression than in 4.9 and 4.8 releases they added relatively few features and tried to stabilize more the DE.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ericg
    replied
    Originally posted by Akka View Post
    Do you use "Folder View"? Folder Views keyboard navigation probably take over if its activated.
    At least with the default desktop krunner take the input.
    I don't now if it exist a way to configure the behavior in "Folder View".
    That fixed it. Thanks Akka, I always ran KDE in Folder View (With the folder set to my Home) so I never even knew that was a feature. WIll definitely stick to normal layout now though because I really like that Krunner picks it up automatically

    Leave a comment:


  • Akka
    replied
    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    Just tried it, didnt work (KDE 4.9.2-- Arch) There a setting you know of for it? No windows open, clicked the desktop, started typing, krunner didnt pop up.

    Anything I type at the desktop though seems to get shoved through Dolphin for some odd reason. If I type Movies and hit enter, Dolphin pops up in my Movies folder. But if I type "konsole" Dolphin then pops up...in whatever folder I was in last. "firefox" --> same thing, "gitsrc" ---> gitsrc folder in my home directory.
    Do you use "Folder View"? Folder Views keyboard navigation probably take over if its activated.
    At least with the default desktop krunner take the input.
    I don't now if it exist a way to configure the behavior in "Folder View".

    Leave a comment:


  • Ericg
    replied
    Originally posted by Akka View Post
    If you write something when the plasma desktop is in focus, krunner automatically catch the text. If a window is in focus click on the desktop and write and krunner catch the text.
    Just tried it, didnt work (KDE 4.9.2-- Arch) There a setting you know of for it? No windows open, clicked the desktop, started typing, krunner didnt pop up.

    Anything I type at the desktop though seems to get shoved through Dolphin for some odd reason. If I type Movies and hit enter, Dolphin pops up in my Movies folder. But if I type "konsole" Dolphin then pops up...in whatever folder I was in last. "firefox" --> same thing, "gitsrc" ---> gitsrc folder in my home directory.

    Leave a comment:


  • Akka
    replied
    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    I just wish there was an search applet on the panel similar to OS X's Spotlight where I could just hit it and search instead of having to do alt-f2 when I wanted to do it, im not a fan of keyboard bindings mainly because I forget about them lol
    If you write something when the plasma desktop is in focus, krunner automatically catch the text. If a window is in focus click on the desktop and write and krunner catch the text.
    Last edited by Akka; 10-09-2012, 05:23 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Teho
    replied
    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    but Kopete was last updated 4 months ago according to the wikipedia article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopete ), though if you check the official kopete website ( http://kopete.kde.org/ ) The last update for it was back in 2008 so maybe its been in maintenance mode since 2008.
    The Kopete website is just outdated. The project has had quite some developement in the past years but is currently in maintance mode and KDE Telepathy is bound to replace it. It's released as part of KDE Software Compilation so it gets updated monthly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ericg
    replied
    Originally posted by dfx. View Post
    really. maybe it should be so in theory, but on my every (unoften) try it just would hog whatether resources where available indefinitely.
    with which on my every act of disabling it, notifications on plasma would pop-up about how horrible, that it's switched off. every log in, and some times in-beetwen, until not long ago, when it finally shut the fuck up with some update.
    Just curious, when was the last time you tried using it? 4.7 and 4.8 both had big updates related to Nepomuk and strigi to fix several memory and CPU related issues. After 4.8 hit i've had zero updates with the indexer sucking resources into infinitely, 4.7 had some issues but was better than 4.6 and prior where I would hit the "Sucking up resources until killed" situations every so often.


    Originally posted by dfx.
    Kopete was almost unmaintained for years, from what i gather.
    Phonon I can't really comment on because I havent had any issues with it in a long time. but Kopete was last updated 4 months ago according to the wikipedia article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopete ), though if you check the official kopete website ( http://kopete.kde.org/ ) The last update for it was back in 2008 so maybe its been in maintenance mode since 2008.

    I am glad to be seeing the community standardizing around Gstreamer, a lot of distros seem to be standardizing on things right now.

    Gstreamer handles multimedia / codecs
    Alsa handles audio drivers
    Pulse handles audio output
    Avahi handles mdns
    systemd is looking to be the new standard for init and low-level things
    LightDM is looking to be the new login-manager of choice since its lightdm-core + a greeter frontend
    udev handles devices
    NetworkManger handles Network Management (fittingly lol) though it does need bridging support to be fully capable.
    Any new standards or possible standards I'm missing? Standards meaning standard because most distros use them/plan to use them, not because a committee sat down and said "This is the standard" (cant remember which is standard de facto and which is standard de jure, its 2am haha)

    Originally posted by dfx.
    ahh-huh, but Akregator does not seem to give a shit and still crashes (and Konqueror still hangs) even when WebKit is set by default. at least until i rebuilt kdelibs with safer flags (just "-O3" instead of "-O2" with a bunch of graphite options and stuff). i have no intentions to figure out, which flag exactly screwed it up, and why it happaned in khtml-related libs, since it beat up my patience too much already.
    Could the crashes simply be related to the KHTML libs not being optimization friendly? Maybe gcc optimized away something important either due to a gcc bug or the style / architecture of the libs. Quite honestly is KHTML even really updated anymore? The ONLY source of updates I can find is: http://khtml-konqueror.blogspot.com/ and thats, by name, restricted to konqueror not Akregator

    Originally posted by dfx.
    they should have concentrated on kwin status more, instead of doing some shit, like rewriting built-in half-assed plasmoids and fidling with elaborate frameworks for them, since they still had to remake everything (QML transition) anyway and either way plasmoid-writing didn't gathered much usefull popularity. which isn't surprising, looking at the state of built-in, KDE authors's own, plasmoids in comparison to KDE 3.X Kicker.
    i'm not saying they shouldn't done any of that at all, but bringing kwin and overall WM-functionality in order to Four-point-_NINE_ release (and not _from_ four-point-nine release) would have been... nice.
    Just gonna down the list, mainly just clarifying things for anyone else reading the discussion...

    1) Plasmoids to QML is a nice time. The logic and the GUI are being even more separated, and the GUI is now even easier to write thanks to how QML is done. They are relying on upstream (Qt) now instead of themselves. The plasmoids are also more portable. They can be used in Plasma Desktop or Plasma Active without any changes, are immediately crossplatform thanks to being Qt based, and are less glitchy. Perfect example is the rewrite being done for the file transfer plasmoid, it has a nasty habit of adjusting its size seemingly randomly when you have the details exposed. So you have the plasmoid showing and its height / width are jumping all over the place instead of staying static. The QML rewrite should fix that.

    2) Redoing the frameworks for KDE5 is another good thing. KDE4 was a big change from KDE3 architecturally, and they realized they didnt get it right the first time but by then they were stuck with maintaining API and ABI compatibility. KDE5 is an opportunity to throw that out the window and refactor the architecture to be more sane, and split off the libraries into smaller libraries in the process making KDE more modular and having simpler dependencies.

    3) Kwin should've gotten more love earlier, yes. But better late than never, and judging from the types of work Martin has been doing in relation to refactoring the classes and the hierarchy and the way things are done, I'm sure he'll have even more stuff to merge now that A) he's a full time developer, and B) He can throw backwards compatibility out the window with KDE5 coming up and people expect an API/ABI break. So its a good oppurtunity to just refactor the entire thing if he has the time and the ideas to do it.

    Originally posted by dfx.
    broken GUIs due to usage of decade[s]-old X functionality, CPU&mem leaking crutch-for-logical-disorder nailed dead unto entire base framework with humongous unnecessary dependency, big plasma rewrites without any substantial derivative plasma work (insufficency of quality-made & maintainable 3rd-party plasmoids) going around (at least it crashes very rarely now), crash/hang-level regressions on minor "bug-fixing" releases - seems pretty fucked-up to me.

    modularization, Qt5 and Telepathy work, hiring the dude, etc. seems pretty good though. i just hope, that it won't turn to crap in practice.

    you're happy with how KDE4 turning up ? good for you. i'm not quite.

    for me: it's fucked up, but, at least, it's not Gnome.
    i would expect stunts like nepomuk/akonadi from there, and nice, modular things, like Telepathy & Gstreamer, from KDE. this whole KDE4 & Gnome3 thing is epic mindfuckery :/
    You said yourself that its decades old X functionality thats breaking some things, I'm hoping that when the Wayland backend is introduced that they can split things off to where Kwin + X works as it always has, but Kwin + wayland will allow for new / better functionality that doesnt have to work around X's fundamental flaws.

    I wouldnt say I'm happy with KDE4, like theres somethings I wish could be changed, but I am far happier with KDE than I am with Gnome or XCFE or LXDE or any of the *boxes. The only one that i've always been attracted to more than KDE has been E17, but KDE definitely is more 'modern-capable' than E17.

    KDE gets a lot of things right, yes, Gnome gets a lot of things wrong, yes. But no one is right or wrong 100% of the time. Gnome will have some good ideas (though honestly I cant think of anything 'good' since Gnome 3 that KDE didnt already do or was in the works for KDE) For you, Nepomuk is useless. Thats fine, but for me its useful. I just wish there was an search applet on the panel similar to OS X's Spotlight where I could just hit it and search instead of having to do alt-f2 when I wanted to do it, im not a fan of keyboard bindings mainly because I forget about them lol

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  • Awesomeness
    replied
    The story is about KWin and you people discuss MySQL? WTF?

    To post something ON TOPIC for a change: Martin already did incredibly much on KWin as hobby developer, it's hard to imagine how much he'll do as full-time developer. KWin is by far the best window manager that ever existed.

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