Microsoft Hosts: GNOME & Mono Festival of Love

[0xBADCODE]

Amarok is the best IMO.

I like Audacious, Deadbeef and qmmp. At least those are players and meant to actually play music. Not to manage "albums" or "tracks" or whatever in some strange and awkward ways while lacking very basic music playback settings. Amarok is more CD ROM covers manager than player .

[directhex]

I guess I'm just careless a bit about some worthless bull***t so I don't bother with exact measurements and quoted very approximate amount of runtime and libs I had to deinstall on some Ubuntu version I tried.

Amarok takes 10 gig! (rounding up to the nearest 10 gig)

And even 50 megz of libs is absolutely moron to run just some 2 or 3 programs

I never said 50 meg of libs, I said 50 meg for the apps, AND the runtime, AND the libs. 50 meg total

who have alternatives allow to avoid bringing 50 megz of crap. Not to mention I dislike awful startup times of .net programs and idea of keeping ton of crap on HDD.

I think we already determined that you have difficulty counting, so I'm not sure your "ton" number there carries much weight

Full .NET 4.5 implementation takes several gigz of assemblies on HDD. So either it would be feature-incomplete half-wrecked stuff or it have to be resource hog.

I don't think you really understand how packages work. Figures.

Mono on Debian/Ubuntu is split into 201 distinct packages. Only the required pieces are ever installed.

Don't need WCF? It's not installed.

Don't need WinForms? It's not installed.

Don't need PostgreSQL database support? It's not installed.

Don't need ASP.NET? It's not installed.

Only the exact, specific libraries used by an app are installed. No more, no less. The footprint on disk required to run a Mono "hello world" is only a couple of meg higher than Python, and lower than Perl.

Not to mention that I find it utterly bizarre that the only people who gripe about whether or not Mono is "feature complete" are people who rage against it. No WPF support? Nobody making apps for Linux cares.

Choosing from these options I prefer yet another one: "kill it with fire". Let's windows ppl enjoy by 20 sec program startup times, gigz of assemblies, hundreds of megs ram wasted by every program and so on.

Then you'll be pleased to read http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTEwMTg which will eliminate the startup time of Mono apps.

As for waste, nope. Mono almost always uses less RAM than the equivalent Python, and always uses less than the equivalent Java. It's also almost always faster than Python or Ruby.

Raging against Mono on Linux is raging against availability of games (3 Humble Bundle games, for example: Bastion, Spacechem, Atom Zombie Smasher)

Raging against Mono on Linux is raging against competitive performance for managed apps (i.e. the balance of RAM and CPU and disk used by Mono is highly competitive with any other popular managed language framework used on Linux)

Raging against Mono on Linux is raging against helping people move from Windows to Linux (e.g. people with university courses taught in C# or VB.NET can use Ubuntu instead of Windows)

But I doubt you care much about that. It's all about the holy war, isn't it?

[kraftman]

I like Audacious, Deadbeef and qmmp. At least those are players and meant to actually play music. Not to manage "albums" or "tracks" or whatever in some strange and awkward ways while lacking very basic music playback settings. Amarok is more CD ROM covers manager than player .

There are many very good Qt players. We have a quite big choice.

[kraftman]

Amarok takes 10 gig! (rounding up to the nearest 10 gig)

What are you talking about?

Raging against Mono on Linux is raging against availability of games (3 Humble Bundle games, for example: Bastion, Spacechem, Atom Zombie Smasher)

Raging against Mono on Linux is raging against competitive performance for managed apps (i.e. the balance of RAM and CPU and disk used by Mono is highly competitive with any other popular managed language framework used on Linux)

Raging against Mono on Linux is raging against helping people move from Windows to Linux (e.g. people with university courses taught in C# or VB.NET can use Ubuntu instead of Windows)

But I doubt you care much about that. It's all about the holy war, isn't it?

If Mono is so great for Linux then why MS wants Gnome to use it? Voting for Mono is voting for MS domination in Linux. Stop kidding about performance and RAM usage. There's Qt. Who cares about few crappy games? Only idiots ignore politics, so by saying about holy war you're making yourself to look quite dumb. Politics affects nearly everything and that's why it's so important and can't be ignored.

[directhex]

What are you talking about?

Just saying, I can make up bullshit numbers with no basis in reality too. Doesn't make them good.

If Mono is so great for Linux then why MS wants Gnome to use it?

they don't. They really don't care.

Voting for Mono is voting for MS domination in Linux. Stop kidding about performance and RAM usage.

... Kidding?

There's Qt. Who cares about few crappy games?

Anyone who wants Linux to appeal to more than a tiny fringe.

Only idiots ignore politics, so by saying about holy war you're making yourself to look quite dumb. Politics affects nearly everything and that's why it's so important and can't be ignored.

Software is software. Playing politics doesn't change that.

[directhex]

And even 50 megz of libs is absolutely moron to run just some 2 or 3 programs who have alternatives allow to avoid bringing 50 megz of crap.

Fresh numbers, which demonstrate why it is so hard to take the anti-Mono crowd seriously when they argue about bloat. Installing languages on minimal Debian:

[email protected]:/# aptitude install ruby1.9.1   
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  libffi5{a} libruby1.9.1{a} libyaml-0-2{a} ruby1.9.1 
0 packages upgraded, 4 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 4703 kB of archives. After unpacking 13.1 MB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] ^C
[email protected]:/# aptitude install python-minimal
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  file{a} libexpat1{a} libmagic1{a} mime-support{a} python{a} python-minimal python2.7{a} python2.7-minimal{a} 
0 packages upgraded, 8 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 5185 kB of archives. After unpacking 18.8 MB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] ^C
[email protected]:/# aptitude install mono-runtime  
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  binfmt-support{a} cli-common{a} libmono-corlib4.0-cil{a} libmono-i18n-west4.0-cil{a} libmono-i18n4.0-cil{a} libmono-security4.0-cil{a} 
  libmono-system-configuration4.0-cil{a} libmono-system-security4.0-cil{a} libmono-system-xml4.0-cil{a} libmono-system4.0-cil{a} mono-4.0-gac{a} mono-gac{a} 
  mono-runtime 
0 packages upgraded, 13 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 4383 kB of archives. After unpacking 11.5 MB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] ^C
[email protected]:/# aptitude install openjdk-7-jre-headless
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  ca-certificates{a} ca-certificates-java{a} dbus{a} fontconfig-config{a} icedtea-7-jre-cacao{a} icedtea-7-jre-jamvm{a} java-common{a} krb5-locales{a} 
  libavahi-client3{a} libavahi-common-data{a} libavahi-common3{a} libcap2{a} libcups2{a} libdbus-1-3{a} libexpat1{a} libffi5{a} libfontconfig1{a} 
  libfreetype6{a} libglib2.0-0{a} libglib2.0-data{a} libgssapi-krb5-2{a} libjpeg8{a} libk5crypto3{a} libkeyutils1{a} libkrb5-3{a} libkrb5support0{a} 
  liblcms2-2{a} libnspr4{a} libnss3 libnss3-1d{a} libpcre3{a} libpcsclite1{a} libsystemd-login0{a} libxml2{a} openjdk-7-jre-headless openjdk-7-jre-lib{a} 
  openssl{a} sgml-base{a} shared-mime-info{a} ttf-dejavu-core{a} tzdata-java{a} ucf{a} xml-core{a} 
0 packages upgraded, 43 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 51.5 MB of archives. After unpacking 137 MB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] ^C

[Luke_Wolf]

2. C# is multi-platform, easy to use and still manages to give you a nice performance boost (compared to other languages like Java (slow, big thing) or C++ (too complex for GUI applications and if you don't know exactly what you are doing you get tons of memory leaks)). Also the documentation is pretty good.

While I'll admit I have never used C# before, I always am shocked at how people say that C++ is a difficult language. It is infact a very easy language to use, particularly in combination with the Qt toolkit. The only thing that makes C++ "difficult" is the fact that you're allowed to do memory management yourself, and if you don't want to do that there are garbage collectors out there or if you're using Qt the Parent-Child hierarchy takes care of it for you. Creating working GUIs is a relatively easy task with Qt and though I've yet to wrap my brain around it QML promises to make things even easier. In terms of documentation I again haven't really dealt with C# so I can't compare but the Qt documentation is excellent.

But what really annoys me is people claiming that the utter hell that is Java is somehow easier than the actually pleasant to program in combination of C++ with Qt. Simple fact is that it's not. Why? Because whereas the fundamental philosophy behind C++ is empowering the developer to do what they want to do, Java is designed from the same philisophical standpoint that drove me away from gnome to KDE shortly after I was originally introduced to linux, the idea that "we know best" that results in massive amounts of brain damage and outright laziness in terms of the design. Every time I'm forced to use it, it feels like having bashed my head against a brick wall for hours on end, leaving me longing for the solace of C++ & Qt.

[smitty3268]

While I'll admit I have never used C# before, I always am shocked at how people say that C++ is a difficult language. It is infact a very easy language to use, particularly in combination with the Qt toolkit. The only thing that makes C++ "difficult" is the fact that you're allowed to do memory management yourself, and if you don't want to do that there are garbage collectors out there or if you're using Qt the Parent-Child hierarchy takes care of it for you. Creating working GUIs is a relatively easy task with Qt and though I've yet to wrap my brain around it QML promises to make things even easier. In terms of documentation I again haven't really dealt with C# so I can't compare but the Qt documentation is excellent.

But what really annoys me is people claiming that the utter hell that is Java is somehow easier than the actually pleasant to program in combination of C++ with Qt. Simple fact is that it's not. Why? Because whereas the fundamental philosophy behind C++ is empowering the developer to do what they want to do, Java is designed from the same philisophical standpoint that drove me away from gnome to KDE shortly after I was originally introduced to linux, the idea that "we know best" that results in massive amounts of brain damage and outright laziness in terms of the design. Every time I'm forced to use it, it feels like having bashed my head against a brick wall for hours on end, leaving me longing for the solace of C++ & Qt.

Raw C++ is really sort of a different animal than Qt.

Qt adds a lot of extra functionality, great libraries, features, and documentation on top of C++, which makes it very nice to use.

I think when people talk about how difficult C++ is, they are generally just using the STL and bringing in random libraries to help them out.

[kraftman]

Just saying, I can make up bullshit numbers with no basis in reality too. Doesn't make them good.

I can make real numbers and real numbers show Amarok is much more efficient than Banshee.

they don't. They really don't care.

They do care. This thread is about this and there's Icaza that's (or was) MS employee.

... Kidding?

Yes, it seems Qt is much more efficient.

Anyone who wants Linux to appeal to more than a tiny fringe.

Bullshit. Rather anyone who wants it to be MS patent mess. We need real games and not such crap.

Software is software. Playing politics doesn't change that.

Software != software and politics affects this software. There's good and patent free software and there's bad software. Politics plays the most important role in nearly every aspect of your life, so don't be stupid and don't ignore it.

[kraftman]

Fresh numbers, which demonstrate why it is so hard to take the anti-Mono crowd seriously when they argue about bloat. Installing languages on minimal Debian:

You're mistake is you're comparing crap to even worse crap.