GNOME Foundation Announces Cost Cutting Measures Due To Budget Woes

[anda_skoa]

KDE is its own software platform at this point. I'm pretty sure even the KDE people have officially stated it ten years ago already. Qt is just the drawing board but KDE is a whole design studio.

Ah, I see where the misunderstanding is coming from.

The KDE platform is comprised of a lot of building blocks that KDE refers to as frameworks.
These are libraries and runtime services for a wide range of functionalities.

So-called Tier 1 frameworks are just like any other third party Qt library and have no dependency on any other piece of the platform.
I.e. a Qt application can use KArchive the same way it can use QtKeyChain: it simply builds it as part of its own setup and links to it.

At work we're using several of such third party libraries in cross platform applications: KArchive, KSyntaxHighlighting, Sonnet, Solid and, even in projects that don't need any of those, Extra CMake modules (ECM).

I have been programming with Qt for 15 years, and also made my own decision to avoid integrating with KDE and instead shipping a plain Qt app.

What you are probably thinking of are Tier 3 frameworks.
Those are APIs that either require runtime services or are intended for applications that are part of KDE's desktop product Plasma.

A KDE app is an app using KDE libs and integrating with the KDE desktop environment.

A KDE application is one created by KDE even if it is not using any part of the KDE software stack.
For example KDE Connect is a mobile application written in Kotlin running on Android and iOS.

Many applications that use Qt and, potentially, some of the KDE libraries, are packaged for systems that Plasma is not available for, e.g. Windows, macOS and mobile platforms.
Krita, for example, has a large Windows user base.

Qt app doesn't integrate all that well, it's just a happy coincidence that KDE people haven't changed so many things that a plain Qt app can share some of the benefits of the KDE desktop environment even without using all of their tools.

Okay, you're confused because I said "KDE" and not "Plasma". It's the same thing.

No, one is the vendor name and the other is the desktop product name, similar to how for Mozilla Firefox the former is the vendor name and the latter the browser product name.
Or how Windows is the OS product of vendor Microsoft.

Yes, it can occasionally happen that people use the vendor name to refer to the most well know product, e.g. saying "Microsoft" when they mean Windows or saying "Mozilla" when they mean Firefox.

Most people, however, are fully aware that each of these vendors has multiple products and refer to each by their actual name, possibly in combination with the vendor name., e.g. "Microsoft Office"

[curfew]

"Gnome app" has become out of place in not just Xfce etc, but KDE Plasma as well. You may call any other DE "hobby" but definitely not for KDE Plasma. The stuck Gnome Adwaita theme is anti-compact UI.

If your personal requirement is that all apps look native on your desktop, then only use native apps. That's the correct solution. It's impossible to make Gnome app not feel shitty on KDE and vice versa, it's always been.

It kind of worked back in the day of Gnome 2 and KDE 3 but only because the whole Linux experience was so fucked up that nobody cared if apps were inconsistent. Nowadays both KDE and Gnome are so very well polished that if the app isn't native, it looks shit. If you wanted a consistent theme on KDE and Gnome even a couple years ago, I think your only option was to install "Adwaita-Qt" or whatever it's called. Libadwaita doesn't change anything in relation to KDE.

Slowly people will grow to realize that it's much better to have non-adaptive apps look like their natural selves on a foreign desktop without themes and shoddy pseudo-interoperative hacks messing it up.

If you don't like Libadwaita, then don't use it in your app. If you don't like an app using Libadwaita, then don't use that app.

Finally: if your desktop environment is so bad that you keep looking at Gnome apps regardless, then why not just use Gnome?

Last time I used KDE was about ten years ago, but I didn't need any non-native apps except Firefox and nowadays also a few Electron apps. Those same exact non-native apps that I need on Gnome as well.

[billyswong]

I'm a software developer and never once did I feel that a piece of code was threatening my life and forcing me to use it or else. That's bullshit. Developers have intentionally chosen to rebase to Libadwaita and become Gnome apps explicitly. if they chose Libadwaita thinking that it was something else, then it's their own fault for doing stupid shit before reading up about it first.

And if I make an informed decision to become a Gnome app, and then some dumbass down the line complains that my app is now "Gnome app" and his stupid hobby DE cannot use it anymore, then I wish him the best moving forward. It isn't his decision what kind of an app I am shipping.

"Gnome app" has become out of place in not just Xfce etc, but KDE Plasma as well. You may call any other DE "hobby" but definitely not for KDE Plasma. The stuck Gnome Adwaita theme is anti-compact UI.

There was a time even Linus Torvalds couldn't stand Gnome3 and switched to Xfce. But it is a long time ago so his choice may have changed again.

[curfew]

Applications from KDE aren't hostile to people who don't like the default KDE aesthetics. There may be excessive dependencies for some of them, but that doesn't punch one in the face.

I also mentioned examples such as Flatseal. Flatseal isn't an application developed by Gnome. But Gnome succeeded in convincing a bunch of application developers into migrating their GTK3 software into GTK4 + libadwaita. Those developers want their applications look native in Gnome DE. Gnome create a trap that one cannot make an application looks native both inside and outside Gnome unless one spend a lot of extra effort.

I'm a software developer and never once did I feel that a piece of code was threatening my life and forcing me to use it or else. That's bullshit. Developers have intentionally chosen to rebase to Libadwaita and become Gnome apps explicitly. if they chose Libadwaita thinking that it was something else, then it's their own fault for doing stupid shit before reading up about it first.

And if I make an informed decision to become a Gnome app, and then some dumbass down the line complains that my app is now "Gnome app" and his stupid hobby DE cannot use it anymore, then I wish him the best moving forward. It isn't his decision what kind of an app I am shipping.

[curfew]

No, sorry, that is just not how these libraries work.

For example if we look at KArchive it is just a library that is using file access API from Qt Core to provide access to archive files like ZIP.
From the point of the application developer it is just another Qt library, just not one produced by the Qt Company.

KDE is just one of many sources for Qt libraries.

KDE is its own software platform at this point. I'm pretty sure even the KDE people have officially stated it ten years ago already. Qt is just the drawing board but KDE is a whole design studio.

I have been programming with Qt for 15 years, and also made my own decision to avoid integrating with KDE and instead shipping a plain Qt app. I have done my studies.

You are mixing different things up.

A KDE application is one that is developed by the KDE community.
Most are written using Qt and some libraries developed by the same community.

An application using Qt and KDE libraries by someone else is just a Qt application.

You are mixing things up. You are talking about politics, that is not relevant in terms of software.

A KDE app is an app using KDE libs and integrating with the KDE desktop environment. Qt app doesn't integrate all that well, it's just a happy coincidence that KDE people haven't changed so many things that a plain Qt app can share some of the benefits of the KDE desktop environment even without using all of their tools.

Okay, you're confused because I said "KDE" and not "Plasma". It's the same thing.

[Quackdoc]

No, I did not miss the point. I got you, meaning I understood loud and clear. I only recently discovered that guy - to be honest - I watched a bunch of his videos.... I don't always agree with him 100% and I concede, yep, he has a bias - he's conservative, politically - but, like the previous guy said - he does cite his sources and explains well....he adds his two cents.... so what? My point is, a lot of bloggers/content creators who discuss tech + politics do this. I posted the other sources - since they are all saying what he presented (whether you like it or NOT) - and even the one had a pretty biased slant. His presentation is not unique, dude.

The other thing you totally missed or another point you gloss over is how political and biased these distro developers are - many of them, at least - especially, when they are controlled, financed or funded by a big corporation - Red Hat/Fedra (IBM, SUSE/OpenSUSE - 2 big ones - these ppl can't help but pushing politics into their work - and there's a lot of conflicts that stems from it. So, if Luke posts something about them and brings up points - so what? He's going to have a reaction to them. His politics is not very widespread in this field or domain - which is offering something different since we are thrown liberal/leftist politics over and over. I don't have a problem with his political bent since the overall presentation is pretty informative and sources are cited. He's a youtuber - he is going to present his two cents....it's mostly woke lefties that dislike him or bring up his bias despite having their own bias and preconceived perspective - which is pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

I think it will be difficult to find neutral YT-ers if discussing those topics - they are also interested in clicks and many like to create videos - not just for money - but, also because they like to yak and offer their two cents.

I don;t disagree that neutral yters are hard to find, I also agree that SUSE, RHEL etc are getting far to political. But there are people that hate them too.

[Panix]

no? I guess you completely missed the point, this is not about gnome at all, this is about lunduke, let me reword it, people don't like lunduke because he has a political bias, and that bias is often, not always, reflected in how he presents information.

when the fuck did I say anything else that would even remotely close to imply that anyone that covers gnome struggling was editorializing?????

No, I did not miss the point. I got you, meaning I understood loud and clear. I only recently discovered that guy - to be honest - I watched a bunch of his videos.... I don't always agree with him 100% and I concede, yep, he has a bias - he's conservative, politically - but, like the previous guy said - he does cite his sources and explains well....he adds his two cents.... so what? My point is, a lot of bloggers/content creators who discuss tech + politics do this. I posted the other sources - since they are all saying what he presented (whether you like it or NOT) - and even the one had a pretty biased slant. His presentation is not unique, dude.

The other thing you totally missed or another point you gloss over is how political and biased these distro developers are - many of them, at least - especially, when they are controlled, financed or funded by a big corporation - Red Hat/Fedra (IBM, SUSE/OpenSUSE - 2 big ones - these ppl can't help but pushing politics into their work - and there's a lot of conflicts that stems from it. So, if Luke posts something about them and brings up points - so what? He's going to have a reaction to them. His politics is not very widespread in this field or domain - which is offering something different since we are thrown liberal/leftist politics over and over. I don't have a problem with his political bent since the overall presentation is pretty informative and sources are cited. He's a youtuber - he is going to present his two cents....it's mostly woke lefties that dislike him or bring up his bias despite having their own bias and preconceived perspective - which is pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

I think it will be difficult to find neutral YT-ers if discussing those topics - they are also interested in clicks and many like to create videos - not just for money - but, also because they like to yak and offer their two cents.

[billyswong]

Apps using Libadwaita are Gnome apps. They aren't meant to integrate well into any other platform, even those based on GTK. Some people portray this as hostile behavior from Gnome's side, but my point was that KDE has been doing the same exact thing forever. Some people are just angry because they had a hobby desktop environment based on Gnome, but they didn't like the direction Gnome has chosen as of recent, so now they're whining.

Applications from KDE aren't hostile to people who don't like the default KDE aesthetics. There may be excessive dependencies for some of them, but that doesn't punch one in the face.

I also mentioned examples such as Flatseal. Flatseal isn't an application developed by Gnome. But Gnome succeeded in convincing a bunch of application developers into migrating their GTK3 software into GTK4 + libadwaita. Those developers want their applications look native in Gnome DE. Gnome create a trap that one cannot make an application looks native both inside and outside Gnome unless one spend a lot of extra effort.

[anda_skoa]

Totally really.

No, sorry, that is just not how these libraries work.

For example if we look at KArchive it is just a library that is using file access API from Qt Core to provide access to archive files like ZIP.
From the point of the application developer it is just another Qt library, just not one produced by the Qt Company.

KDE is just one of many sources for Qt libraries.

Every app using those K* libs is a KDE app by choice, whereas apps using plain Qt are more generic "Qt apps" and not necessarily tied with the KDE desktop.

You are mixing different things up.

A KDE application is one that is developed by the KDE community.
Most are written using Qt and some libraries developed by the same community.

An application using Qt and KDE libraries by someone else is just a Qt application.
E.g. when using KArchive for accessing ZIP files.

And orthogonal to either of those you have KDE's desktop product Plasma.

Even most of the applications developed by KDE do usually not have any dependency on Plasma, though some of them might be able to offer Plasma specific features if they detect running in such an environment.

[curfew]

A significant amount of applications write their GTK4 UI together with libadwaita, probably because it is the latest and most feature-rich choice to the eyes of application developers. Also those developed by GNOME in-house.

Apps using Libadwaita are Gnome apps. They aren't meant to integrate well into any other platform, even those based on GTK. Some people portray this as hostile behavior from Gnome's side, but my point was that KDE has been doing the same exact thing forever. Some people are just angry because they had a hobby desktop environment based on Gnome, but they didn't like the direction Gnome has chosen as of recent, so now they're whining.