AMD Radeon Linux Gaming Performance At Parity Between KDE Plasma 6.0 X11 vs. Wayland

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  • oiaohm
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2017
    • 8434

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Were they not a board member because they didn't want to be, or was their money just not welcome?

    Section 4.2
    There is no money required to sit on the x.org board or the xfree86 board before that. Nvidia never put forward a person to sit on the x.org or xfree86 board. Xfree86 was the same. The reality the complete time of Nvidia existence be it Xfree86 or x.org they have never even put forward a person to attempt to sit on the Xfree86 or X.org board.

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Given the position of RH on the board, their position on Nvidia, and the push to direct all effort to xwayland, I'm very much inclined to believe it is the later.
    They are very active in Khronos group for example, and have members on that board Just being a member there is $90,000 a year.
    Not a cent from Khronos goes into x.org server development.

    Basically the evidence is that Nvidia has had no major interest in control or guiding X11 development or providing funds to X11 development on bare metal. Yes Xwayland we have in fact seen developers from Nvidia serous-ally involved in fact providing code. This is different to Nvidia complete history of interactions with the X11 protocol.

    Yes that deep color protocol for HDR from Nvidia at x.org they provide the protocol but zero reference implementation. So the normal we want to implement this in our closed source driver and we want you to rubber stamp the protocol extension. Yes Nvidia did this many times over X11 protocol history. and got away with it many times even that a submitted protocol by X11 standard is meant to have a implementation submitted to the reference implementation. How x.org xserver exploded in size resulting in it needing a major cull was this rule.

    mSparks remember out of all the parties making major money from X.org X11 server you look at who has been on the x.org board on that page majority of the parties making the money out of x.org X11 server usage are not present at all. You see a Intel you see AMD you see Orcale... You can get list of everyone who has also attempted to be on that board. The shocking part is fairly much take every company on that page of yours and that covers 99% of all people who ever applied to be on the x.org board or the xfree86 board before that.

    There is no fee to come a x.org member either. The rules of x.org means that a company could join a stack members and at the next board vote 100 percent insure they get 2 seats so 1/4 of the vote. With careful planing its really possible for a single company with sub companies to take over the complete x.org board any time they wanted so set x.org direction how ever they like if they are willing to throw enough resources at it.

    Nvidia is pure lack of will nothing more with x.org bare metal and xfree86 before it. There has been zero barrier to prevent a party like Nvidia using their wealth to take over if they want to. Yes Nvidia if they wished could set the future direction of X11 protocol development for under 30 thousand dollars of investment(mostly setting up shell companies so they can take 100 percent of the board). In fact I have been at votes for the x.org board where they were failing to get the 8 board members. There have been many times over the existence of x.org where there was zero competition for the seats on the board.


    Comment

    • mSparks
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2007
      • 2078

      Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
      they have never even put forward a person to attempt to sit on the Xfree86 or X.org board.

      Not a cent from Khronos goes into x.org server development.
      Whoosh

      nvidia has a huge volume of open and closed source X11 developer stuff. all those data centers and HPC they run on are deploying X11 and will seemingly never be wayland.

      the value of X11 to industry is they dont need anyones permission to extend it, they just make and deploy it.

      there are clearly two camps here

      Linux/X11/Nvidia

      $90,000 a year to be a member of that camp

      Redhat/Wayland/AMDGPU

      $10,000 a year revenue as an organisation.

      Redhat devoted significant effort into cutting nvidia out. They would never allow nvidia on the x.org board even if they put someone forward, they dont allow fedora to ship nvidia drivers, every single redhat dev goes batshit whenever their name is mentioned and starts posting linus fuck you nvidia links.

      Fantasy and hypebole to the left, camp the market chose as the winner, and which is dead to the right.

      Comment

      • oiaohm
        Senior Member
        • Mar 2017
        • 8434

        Originally posted by mSparks View Post
        the value of X11 to industry is they dont need anyones permission to extend it, they just make and deploy it.
        Time to bust your bubble.
        Phoronix, Linux Hardware Reviews, Linux hardware benchmarks, Linux server benchmarks, Linux benchmarking, Desktop Linux, Linux performance, Open Source graphics, Linux How To, Ubuntu benchmarks, Ubuntu hardware, Phoronix Test Suite

        Why does "DeepColor Visual" Extension not exist in your current Nvidia drivers. Yes why Nvidia X11 HDR is restricted to a 32 bit image so 10 high color is lacking alpha.

        Simple in the past when x.org core was actively developed by AMD/Intel and so on. Nvidia would suggest extension like this .leg work to work on core x.org would be done by someone other than Nvidia then Nvidia would take advantage of it good old fashion enshittification of doing the lowest cost route to make the most profit. This of third parties picking of the x.org work for Nvidia has stopped happening and was showing stopped 2017 with what happened with the "DeepColor Visual" Extension..

        To alter core functionality you either need the permission of upstream or to fork and maintain your own version of x.org server. Nvidia is doing neither. The one getting new features to the X11 protocol is Xwayland at the moment not the bare metal. Yes Xwayland also takes away the DDX to allowed closed source plugins.

        Other example where you cannot ignore the upstream turns out to be the mess Nvidia had with eglstreams. For explicit sync to work stable there need to be cooperation with the kernel core scheduler particular in cases of application terminated so that an application dies while holding explicit lock does not cause a dead lock..

        Enshittification has the word shit in it because long term following this process you always find yourself with a failed product so company depending on this product finds themself in the shit. Yes it takes a long time to fail but the product always does fail if enshittification does not stop and get taken out by some other competitor. Yes the competitor in case like this normally takes a long term to get to useful feature equal. Wayland vs X11 following the expected route. If core X11 was getting the resources it need your claim that Wayland is doomed would be right. The fact core X11 is suffering from really bad enshittification is not a minor factor in what going on.

        Lot of ways your claims about X11 are no different from those who use to make horse drawn carts saying motor car would not ever replace them. Yes major reason for replacement car is a real shit problem and the early cars were very feature garbage.


        This another item warning of the one of the process of enshittification. mSparks claiming 2 different camps when 2 camps really does not exist is a major case of copium you need to get over this is how you miss seeing one of the processes of enshittification happening .

        Comment

        • mSparks
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2007
          • 2078

          Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

          More strawman
          Dunno, but surely not worth reinstalling wayland for and risking getting hit by randsomware. That ship has sailed.
          Last edited by mSparks; 26 April 2024, 06:20 PM.

          Comment

          • oiaohm
            Senior Member
            • Mar 2017
            • 8434

            Originally posted by mSparks View Post
            Dunno, but surely not worth reinstalling wayland for and risking getting hit by randsomware.
            Evidence please because that not a straw-man that a baseless claim. The security items you have pointed to with X11 don't really exist.

            What you called a strawman of mine has evidence.

            Please note I don't care and never has cared if you have Wayland installed. Only think I take issue with is all your garbage claims mSparks.
            Last edited by oiaohm; 26 April 2024, 06:31 PM.

            Comment

            • mSparks
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2007
              • 2078

              Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
              Evidence please because that not a straw-man that a baseless claim. The security items you have pointed to with X11 don't really exist.

              What you called a strawman of mine has evidence.

              Please note I don't care and never has cared if you have Wayland installed. Only think I take issue with is all your garbage claims mSparks.
              I believe Kristian Høgsberg


              and the nvidia wayland documentation


              Over you saying Kristian Høgsberg doesn't know anything about wayland.
              You know, when you and WileEPyote went off on him here:
              Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
              Was that even correct back then the answer is no it was not yet what you have pointed to as turned into a repeated myth.
              Maybe if it ever gets on par vs android or ios and I have a not connected to the internet use case I'll give wayland a second look, but until then it is explicitly not suitable for desktop, workstation or server use cases.
              Last edited by mSparks; 26 April 2024, 06:54 PM.

              Comment

              • oiaohm
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2017
                • 8434

                Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                Deleted already dis-proven in this thread.
                .
                Try again
                Last edited by oiaohm; 26 April 2024, 06:59 PM.

                Comment

                • mSparks
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2007
                  • 2078

                  Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

                  Try again
                  try what again? I uninstalled it all with no problems. all you did after you realised who Kristian Høgsberg is was change the topic as quickly as you could.

                  but the topic and official documentation is still wayland is suitable for a few embedded use cases otherwise you should uninstall/not install it and use X11 instead.

                  The only camp that thinks otherwise is the redhat/wayland camp, and they arent going to have jobs for very much longer, because they bet the company on wayland winning and nvidia failing, and exactly the opposite has happened.
                  Last edited by mSparks; 26 April 2024, 07:16 PM.

                  Comment

                  • oiaohm
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2017
                    • 8434

                    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                    Deleted No valid examples.
                    Evidence please because that not a straw-man that a baseless claim. The security items you have pointed to with X11 don't really exist.

                    Try again

                    Comment

                    • WileEPyote
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2023
                      • 223

                      Yep. Unsubscribing from this shit show of a thread. There's just no talking to some people.

                      Comment

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