AMD Radeon Linux Gaming Performance At Parity Between KDE Plasma 6.0 X11 vs. Wayland

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  • mSparks
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2007
    • 2065

    Originally posted by WileEPyote View Post

    Whatever, it doesn't matter. Just do SOMETHING. ANYTHING. To actually contribute. What you're doing now, which is just complaining on random forums about what you don't like
    Well, no, what I do for X11 is mostly VR stuff

    That is here:
    Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


    Unfortunately wayland looks to be still 10 or 15 years before it is cable of running any of that. Because they need to complete rethink its design.

    Originally posted by WileEPyote View Post
    Find devs willing to add what you want to wayland.
    I'd like VR, Xsecurelock, xandr, Screencasting and/with xauthority support please, where do I find these devs willing to add them to wayland? Last time I asked they told me wayland couldn't by design.
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    what we’re doing to make it work on Wayland
    Exactly? X11 isn't dead, unlike wayland new shiney stuff just works, because it was designed to support new shiney stuff from day one, and wayland hasn't even gotten the basics working yet.
    Last edited by mSparks; 21 April 2024, 04:01 AM.

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    • WileEPyote
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2023
      • 223

      Originally posted by mSparks View Post
      Well, no, what I do for X11 is mostly VR stuff

      That is here:
      Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


      Unfortunately wayland looks to be still 10 or 15 years before it is cable of running any of that. Because they need to complete rethink its design.


      I'd like VR, Xsecurelock, xandr, Screencasting and/with xauthority support please, where do I find these devs willing to add them to wayland? Last time I asked they told me wayland couldn't by design.


      Exactly? X11 isn't dead, unlike wayland new shiney stuff just works, because it was designed to support new shiney stuff from day one, and wayland hasn't even gotten the basics working yet.
      X11 is dead though, unless somebody takes up active development of it. Sure, it's still perfectly usable. but for how long? Nobody is working on adding new features. Hell, they're barely working on bug fixes, unless it's a major security flaw.

      It. Is. Not. In. Active. Development.

      Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend? You will not be getting new features in X11. It will not be surviving in the long run. I can't make it any more simple than that.

      Does it do everything you want? Cool. Use it. Nobody is stopping you. Use what you want. It's still a viable alternative, at least for now.

      But what are you going to do once it stops doing everything you want?

      Comment

      • mSparks
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2007
        • 2065

        Originally posted by WileEPyote View Post

        X11 is dead though, unless somebody takes up active development of it.
        X11 is a project developed and deployed by hundreds of different companies, including every single one of the top 500 HPC machines.
        The last release of XCB was 15th April 2024, fixing up python bindings.

        It's ahead of wayland in every single aspect, including things like VR, HDR and VRR that only started happening meaningfully in the last couple of years.

        Is it you are confusing "dead" with one company (redhat) saying they will only sell wayland support packages after 2025?

        X11 is not dead




        Wayland is - to the point I already uninstalled it.
        Last edited by mSparks; 21 April 2024, 04:46 AM.

        Comment

        • oiaohm
          Senior Member
          • Mar 2017
          • 8420

          Originally posted by mSparks View Post
          X11 is a project developed and deployed by hundreds of different companies, including every single one of the top 500 HPC machines.
          In fact not all the top 500HPC machines have x.org server. The weather forecasting ones don't they use grads to generate for output to website.

          There are many of the HPC machines that generate data then ship it no graphical interface. Yes command only beasts generating images to be emailed or displayed on websites..

          mSparks over 80% of the 500HPC don't have X11 server of any form this is absolute knowable because they document the software they are using. Please note I am not saying zero but its not 100percent of them and has never been 100 percent of them.


          ITEM: SFC
          SFC received all our signatures for the transition paperwork, and we'll be
          moving onto the next steps soon!
          ACTIONS:
          STATUS: Pending​
          mSparks would have paid to read those meeting notes. x.org as a foundation as it own legal entity is in the process of being ended. It take take awhile to end a legal entity.

          RIKEN R-CCS is Japan's premier research center in HPC and the home of the supercomputer Fugaku. This page tells you about Virtual Fugaku


          mSparks I am absolutely not kidding that you can find out the software they use. Yes this is number 4 on the TOP500 software the Supercomputer Fugaku. No X.org server here. The control software is all web based. Software they run generate data that you have sent to you.​ This is normal configuration for most of the TOP500.

          Think about it mSparks it takes big money to build the TOP500 systems. When spending this amount of money majority of the time know what data you will be processing and how. You are not needing to run graphical applications on the thing because what being processed is able to be scripted and planned. X11 for those cases is just overhead.

          Now it different in a University HPC setup that are normally not as big due to the more experimental nature more likely to see graphical(including x11). Basically there is a size of HPC where graphical starts magically disappearing for anything other than job management and it due to that the bigger systems you are not putting highly experimental workloads on them resulting in not needing graphical to debug workload.
          Last edited by oiaohm; 21 April 2024, 07:47 AM.

          Comment

          • mSparks
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2007
            • 2065

            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

            In fact not all the top 500HPC machines have x.org server.
            Everything they run are X11 applications. There are no Wayland applications, let alone for HPC. Because it's dead, can't even par X11 for gaming. Just uninstall it and move on.

            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
            awhile to end a legal entity.
            You clearly have no idea what SFC is.
            Phoronix, Linux Hardware Reviews, Linux hardware benchmarks, Linux server benchmarks, Linux benchmarking, Desktop Linux, Linux performance, Open Source graphics, Linux How To, Ubuntu benchmarks, Ubuntu hardware, Phoronix Test Suite



            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

            mSparks over 80% of the 500HPC don't have X11 server of any form
            And you are surprised by this?
            Last edited by mSparks; 21 April 2024, 09:46 AM.

            Comment

            • mrg666
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2023
              • 1065

              Originally posted by mSparks View Post
              Everything they run are X11 applications. There are no Wayland applications, let alone for HPC. Because it's dead, can't even par X11 for gaming. Just uninstall it and move on.

              You clearly have no idea what SFC is.
              Phoronix, Linux Hardware Reviews, Linux hardware benchmarks, Linux server benchmarks, Linux benchmarking, Desktop Linux, Linux performance, Open Source graphics, Linux How To, Ubuntu benchmarks, Ubuntu hardware, Phoronix Test Suite


              And you are surprised by this?
              You have absolutely no idea what are you talking about. HPC systems are not used for running X11 applications and the xorg server is specifically disabled on most (if not all) of them. I know because I built, administered, and used them in the last 20 years. I use the largest ones on the 500 list everyday. There are workstation farms that you can use for running graphical applications and they are mostly underutilized.

              BTW, I started using fedora 40 very recently. There is no X11 on it Tell me what I am missing?

              Comment

              • mSparks
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2007
                • 2065

                Originally posted by mrg666 View Post

                You have absolutely no idea what are you talking about. HPC systems are not used for running X11 applications and the xorg server is specifically disabled on most (if not all) of them. I know because I built, administered, and used them in the last 20 years. I use the largest ones on the 500 list everyday. There are workstation farms that you can use for running graphical applications and they are mostly underutilized.

                BTW, I started using fedora 40 very recently. There is no X11 on it Tell me what I am missing?
                Working with Visualizations and GUI Applications on the Research Computing Clusters


                ___
                recommended post install steps for FC40 are install xsecurelock, nvida driver and unistall anything wayland, you'll probably need to disable wayland in /etc/gdm/custom.conf​ then restart gdm.
                Last edited by mSparks; 21 April 2024, 10:58 AM.

                Comment

                • oiaohm
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2017
                  • 8420

                  That not a TOP500 super computer.


                  HPC clusters often work with a queue system and so GUI use is not standard. However, on most clusters a user can request what is called an interactive session via the queue which gives them direct access to one of the cluster’s nodes with restricted resources (cores, memory, time limit, etc.) as requested from the queue. The user can then bring up the GUI and run the calculation on that node. However, this has some limitations. Interactive sessions are often restricted to a few at the same time, putting a limit on how many calculations can be done. Users also need an X Windows session when accessing the cluster to be able to display the GUI (usually a problem for users’ Windows desktops).

                  mSparks do notice here GUI on a HPC cluster is not standard usage. Notice here you might try to bring up a GUI on HPC and if other people are and the limit interactive sessions is hit you are not doing this. Yet the non GUI non interactive tasks do not have the same restrictive limit. Some university have HPC clusters forbid graphical completely and you only have the queue system and non interactive task(yes the bigger HPC clusters getting people ready for business usage).

                  The reality as HPC systems get bigger the odds of X11 server is there in fact reduce. The more skilled a person is with doing HPC the less they need graphical system hand holding. University when person is learning how to do HPC workloads is the highest point to find graphical in HPC.

                  mSparks like it or not X11 is not used everywhere in HPC. In fact attempt to use X11 with HPC can be the cause of you not getting your results in time to submit for grading so fail class and have to repeat at different Uni.

                  Horrible way for University to get repeat income is set a task every year that cannot be completed if you don't do it non interactive and don't tell the students. Yes lower the interactive session allowance in that time frame to make sure it breaks on them well.

                  Just because a Uni provides students with instructions how to use X11/xpra/vnc on a HPC does not mean it not a trap.

                  Comment

                  • mrg666
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2023
                    • 1065

                    Did you read it yourself? They run X11 server only on the visualization nodes (or workstation farm as I wrote) not the compute nodes. The compute nodes of the HPC do not run X11 server so options 2 and 3 are not available.

                    Comment

                    • mrg666
                      Senior Member
                      • Mar 2023
                      • 1065

                      Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                      ___
                      recommended post install steps for FC40 are install xsecurelock, nvida driver and unistall anything wayland, you'll probably need to disable wayland in /etc/gdm/custom.conf​ then restart gdm.
                      Thanks for the laugh, that is really funny.

                      Comment

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