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KDE Is Down To Just One Wayland Showstopper Bug Remaining

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  • #41
    Originally posted by avis View Post

    Tell me what you can do under Gnome/KDE that I cannot do under IceWM.
    • Manage user accounts, regional settings, default applications, etc. from a centralized configuration tool
    • Store login information in a centralized keychain
    • Configure networks from a centralized tools and use the keychain for WiFi network passwords
    • Manage and configure audio devices
    • Manage and configure Bluetooth devices
    • (... probably more, I listed things that only I personally rely on on a regular basis)

    Originally posted by avis View Post
    Here's what IceWM supports:
    • Global shortcuts
    • You can use third party apps for screen sharing/casting
    • It has virtual desktops
    • It offers the systray
    • It offers various panel informational modules
    • It offers layout switcher
    What's there in the DE for you? A file manager? Who the fuck cares, you can use any graphical file manager in IceWM.
    So does KWin, Sway, not sure about Wayfire (yes, please, point out the global shortcuts as a deal-breaker).

    Originally posted by avis View Post
    A rich settings applications? IceWM has a great INI file you can edit. Some settings can be changed from the UI.
    Haven't you personally made like 17 million remarks on how configuring a computer via a configuration file is a very user-alienating experience?

    You should also keep in mind that IceWM is technically a tiny DE. The proper definition of a Window Manager in the X11 sense is that it is a program that lets you manipulate windows on the screen. The truth to the matter is that if we disregard the really frugal ones, then all programs that have the moniker "WM" in their description are really just tiny DEs.


    • #42
      Originally posted by sindex View Post
      At least, Wayland will be the default in Plasma when it's ready, GNOME had a tech preview as the default for years.
      That would lead to an instant crash for a second seat on a multiseat config. No play.


      • #43
        I'm sure Fedora will have the X11 packages, and whatever else, for those who want to install. Disregarding those few usual noisemakers, yay! This is good news. I have a feeling Plasma 6 will be great and I hope Ubuntu will also remove X11 from the default installation.

        When an existing Fedora system is upgraded, X11 and all of its crap will stay. What is the point of these idiotic posts every time, I have no idea.
        Last edited by mrg666; 25 November 2023, 03:33 PM.


        • #44
          Originally posted by Weasel View Post

          Nobody gives a shit what those monkeys consider "show-stopping" or not. How can they unironically put sticky keys as a showstopper but not "restore session" for example? LOL. Unreal.
          I find it interesting that according to you words nobody gives a shit but at the same time you took the liberty of insulting them.

          I does seem like you give a shit.

          For the record, restore session was deemed not a showstopper partly because it never fully worked on X11 either. If you were amongst the lucky ones for whom it worked... well, I am sorry it doesn't work right now. Note that there's work being done to solve that specific use case :-)


          • #45
            Originally posted by Linuxhippy View Post
            Well for me it is. Those are self-installed applications which haven't been pre-packaged, and the .desktop file was created by myself using KDE's interface for it (with icons assigned). When using X everything works as expected, when using KDE+Wayland I have 10 applications in my taskbar and don't know which one is which. A small technical problem, but a usability nightmare.
            I understand this is a problem for you specifically but you must admit most users will not be self-installing things. That being said, perhaps checking and can help with your issue.

            There was a time when I had *many* open bug reports against major end-use open-source projects like firefox, libreoffice and KDE.
            Every time I noticed something was off, I took the time tried to reproduce and file a bug. every time a crash happend and the applictaion/os had a crash reporter, I took the time and described what caused it. and when it didn't i installed debug symbols and created a back-trace with gdb.

            And what typically happens is:
            - Fedora ABRT: no one looks at the issues, after two releases they are auto-closed
            - KDE: tickets stay open until they are no longer relevant (because the component is no longer shipped with KDE)
            - LibreOffice: every 2-4 years someone asks to re-validate if the issue is still present. sometimes someone else takes the time to re-validate, sometimes the issues are closed because I no longer care.
            I dunno about the Libreoffice situation but I guarantee that on Fedora we do look at ABRT when our resources allow us and KDE certainly does not do what you say it does.

            Notice that KDE has gained a lot of steam in the last 2-3 years and a lot of active contributors have been fixing and improving things all over the place.

            Try it again, you might be surprised of the result :-)

            However I stopped reporting obvious issues (like the W-Icon and the projector issue), because they are so common problems, I am sure many before me spottet the same problems. And they are still not fixed, so what would be the value of sitting down and writing down what is already known but no one found time to care about.
            If something really bothers me, I have to fix it myself. However the described issues don't bother me enough yet, I can still use KDE with X and everything works fine.
            I can only tell you that it's almost 100% sure a problem will not be solved if the developers do not know it's present or do not know it's important for users. You are just assuming that other people have reported them. But you down *know* ;-)

            I have taken the same approach in the past and I have been shocked in different occasions on how the stupidest things were not fixed just because nobody cared to actually write a bug report ( I myself have reported a couple bugs which were fixed in less that 12h with one-liners fixes)

            Don't get me wrong, I really like KDE and I am very grateful for what the KDE developers created here. I get a very capable desktop environment for free and I even get the source for it. And for the last few years, the KDE 5.x series (on top of X) has also been quite reliable and stable.
            My comment was just describing the issues which stop me from using KDE+Wayland currently.
            I am glad you like KDE. I would be even more glad if you were also using Fedora KDE :-)

            I can only encourage to participate in the community so we can all profit from all the contributions regardless of how small they are.


            • #46
              Originally posted by MadCatX View Post
              • Manage user accounts, regional settings, default applications, etc. from a centralized configuration tool
              • Store login information in a centralized keychain
              • Configure networks from a centralized tools and use the keychain for WiFi network passwords
              • Manage and configure audio devices
              • Manage and configure Bluetooth devices
              • (... probably more, I listed things that only I personally rely on on a regular basis)

              1. I don't use those as most people don't.
              2. Never used those as most people don't.
              3. NetworkManager has replaced that years ago.
              4. blueman-manager has replaced that years ago.
              5. Yeah, exactly, "probably more".

              DE have become redundant bloatware most pieces of which are of zero use.


              • #47
                Originally posted by ezst036 View Post

                There is quite a lot of projecting onto others in this comment, sir. The lack of self awareness here is quite astounding.

                Where is your active code repository? Speaking of not writing a single line of code...................................... What do your commits look like?
                1. I've never called for dropping compatibility! I actually respect what others use and may need.
                2. I've made hundreds of contributions to other projects, just not to Xorg itself!! That doesn't make any less worthy of a person. Shit.

                Maybe start with yourself for fuck's sake, "Projecting" my ass.

                Kiddies and schoolboys using Linux for a couple of years and screaming to make Linux much less usable and compatible because they are fond of bloatware like Gnome and KDE.

                Xorg requires no fucking maintenance. It just works. You could drop this stupid mantra, if that's all there is for you.

                FML. Another despicable conversation by people who have not created a single successful software product.
                Last edited by avis; 25 November 2023, 04:08 PM.


                • #48
                  Originally posted by avis View Post
                  1. I don't use those as most people don't.
                  What makes you competent to make that statement?

                  Originally posted by avis View Post
                  2. Never used those as most people don't.
                  What makes you competent to make that statement?

                  I use centralized keychain every time I log into my account, open my e-mail client or log on to a password-protected WiFi, as I have been doing for ~10 years.

                  Originally posted by avis View Post
                  3. NetworkManager has replaced that years ago.
                  - NM does not provide a GUI
                  - NM does not provide a secure password storage

                  No current DE I know of replaces NM but only provides a user interface to access NM functionality. But I am sure you know that already.

                  Originally posted by avis View Post
                  5. blueman-manager has replaced that years ago.
                  But that does not come with a seamless integration into the rest of the DE interface.

                  Originally posted by avis View Post
                  6. Yeah, exactly, "probably more".
                  I am not sure how to interpret that.

                  I have also taken the liberty of fixing the numbering for you.​


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Damnshock View Post
                    (random thought: does that happen on a computer which you suspend/resume? do you use Nvidia?)
                    No nvidia, last time I just opened a tab on Firefox (the third one) and it was loading a url from my internal network (which I do very often) and it freezed. No keyboard

                    Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon Gen 10


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by tgurr View Post
                      There's also software like Veyon for digital learning environments like schools wich will stop working as major workarounds for Wayland yet have to be implemented and/or the spec or portals don't include such a usecase at all yet: which leads to which is marked as "needs design/discussion" since 2020.
                      To be correct this shows how often developers are not administrators and administrators not knowing to do things..

                      Every provided by desktop portals can have permission granted by polkit to use the desktrop portal. polkit is texted based and has to be modified with root permissions

                      This here has examples of allowing different things.

                      Yes you can by polkit authorize a group of users to with particular applications to have screen capture work without user having todo authorization so there is already way to pre authorize xdg desktop portal usage. But if you do this will it work the way Veyon wants the answer is no because screen sharing xdg-desktop portal even if you have permission to use it will still ask user what screen they want to give to the application. Veyon wants to be silent.

                      Flatpak on install does not allow you to populate polkit rules. There is no GUI that I know of to auto write polkit rules for you its back to text files.

                      Also that flatpak permission-set​ of 471 is not really that problem. 471 as administator is solvable by using a system wide flatpak repository and changing permissions on it. Endless has a work around on startup because it atomic file system.

                      There was ask for more information that was not given and the person doing the management of bugs has done the incorrect merge here.

                      Veyon really is after a feature desktop portal screen sharing does not support. This is not a permission problem as such. This is most likely a case that need a new portal or different portal.

                      This is my first working version of a working way to restore screencast streams. First, I'd like to remind what goals I had in mind when working on it: Users must be able to control whether or not...

                      Using screencast xdg-desktop portal that different to the screenshare portal there is persistence of user selected option but this is not done as something administrator can set up globally. But this is also most likely not what Veyon wants because the users have the right to disable this.

                      There is a difference between a permission problem and application being forgetful.

                      Its a little bit of a overstatement to say the Veyon case does not work tgurr. The reality it works if user is cooperative and clicks on the right boxes. So this does not need a Wayland specification fix. Yes 638 with screenshare shows that xdg-desktop portals can have persistence added in configuration.

                      tgurr also you need to read more carefully the need discussion flag was added 4 of Oct 2023 for 471 so not from 2020. So yes the bug has a active developer looking at it and the developers not getting the feedback to proceed forwards.

                      Remember developers are human and do make mistakes with bug like this it a two way street where the person/persons submitting bug will be required to provide more information at some point. If the developer is does not have the information required lot of cases better of closing the bug so that hopefully someone with the information required will not see the open bug and post nothing because of the open bug but instead either reopen the bug or post a new bug with the information required to proceed forwards.