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  • #11
    Originally posted by Danny3 View Post
    Wow, they are driving their EEE at full speed!
    1. Embrace: Development of software substantially compatible with a competing product, or implementing a public standard.
    2. Extend: Addition and promotion of features not supported by the competing product or part of the standard, creating interoperability problems for customers who try to use the "simple" standard.
    3. Extinguish: When extensions become a de facto standard because of their dominant market share, they marginalize competitors that do not or cannot support the new extensions.
    1, 2, & 3 describes what RHEL is trying to do with Wayland and Weston by moving all the heavy Wayland lifting over to GNOME and Mutter to stifle their competition by preventing a centralized project and making everyone reinvent the wheel. From the get-go they could have made Wayland in a manner that benefited everybody, but instead they merely Embraced an in-house technology, Wayland, and turned it into an open standard for everyone. They then Extend the Wayland protocol in ways that suit their needs which makes them look beneficial and benevolent towards everyone, but Extending Wayland is adding only protocols and guidelines, not actually doing something that's tangible, usable, or benefits anyone. They Extinguish by implementing their Extensions in their own window manager, Mutter, while making the reference model, Weston, into something that nobody wants to use so we end up in a situation where companies like AMD aren't able implement a lot of their features on Linux because there is no standard reference Wayland library that anyone can tap into. RHEL does that so people and companies will be forced to Embrace GNOME and Mutter while making it harder to Extend competing projects in hopes that their competition will become Extinguished.

    RHEL's Wayland EEE is why we don't have things like Radeon Super Resolution, better FreeSync, a GUI with video equalization and screen capturing/game streaming, Privacy View, etc. Even if AMD could agree on a graphics toolkit for the mythical AMD GUI, there's no de facto Window Manager or Library to tie into so they'd have to add their sauce to every Wayland window manager. That's not AMD; it's Valve, Intel, NVIDIA...anyone involved with graphics presentation. That's why I really hope that KDE adopts wl-roots into KWin. If a major project like KDE adopts wl-roots, there are greater hopes that other major projects and companies will be more likely to do the same. If that happens then the Wayland Situation might start being solved. Rootful outta help with that, too.

    The Wayland Situation is a big reason why Linux doesn't have nice things. Open Source and Open Protocols doesn't necessarily translate into Cooperation and Sharing. Worst case scenario, it just allows those who release the open code and protocols to sit on their High Trojan Horse and say "But look at all the good things we're doing." while not addressing Hannibal and the War Elephants of Forced Duplicated Effort charging down the hall towards the room.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
      1. Embrace: Development of software substantially compatible with a competing product, or implementing a public standard.
      2. Extend: Addition and promotion of features not supported by the competing product or part of the standard, creating interoperability problems for customers who try to use the "simple" standard.
      3. Extinguish: When extensions become a de facto standard because of their dominant market share, they marginalize competitors that do not or cannot support the new extensions.
      1, 2, & 3 describes what RHEL is trying to do with Wayland and Weston by moving all the heavy Wayland lifting over to GNOME and Mutter to stifle their competition by preventing a centralized project and making everyone reinvent the wheel. From the get-go they could have made Wayland in a manner that benefited everybody, but instead they merely Embraced an in-house technology, Wayland, and turned it into an open standard for everyone. They then Extend the Wayland protocol in ways that suit their needs which makes them look beneficial and benevolent towards everyone, but Extending Wayland is adding only protocols and guidelines, not actually doing something that's tangible, usable, or benefits anyone. They Extinguish by implementing their Extensions in their own window manager, Mutter, while making the reference model, Weston, into something that nobody wants to use so we end up in a situation where companies like AMD aren't able implement a lot of their features on Linux because there is no standard reference Wayland library that anyone can tap into. RHEL does that so people and companies will be forced to Embrace GNOME and Mutter while making it harder to Extend competing projects in hopes that their competition will become Extinguished.

      RHEL's Wayland EEE is why we don't have things like Radeon Super Resolution, better FreeSync, a GUI with video equalization and screen capturing/game streaming, Privacy View, etc. Even if AMD could agree on a graphics toolkit for the mythical AMD GUI, there's no de facto Window Manager or Library to tie into so they'd have to add their sauce to every Wayland window manager. That's not AMD; it's Valve, Intel, NVIDIA...anyone involved with graphics presentation. That's why I really hope that KDE adopts wl-roots into KWin. If a major project like KDE adopts wl-roots, there are greater hopes that other major projects and companies will be more likely to do the same. If that happens then the Wayland Situation might start being solved. Rootful outta help with that, too.

      The Wayland Situation is a big reason why Linux doesn't have nice things. Open Source and Open Protocols doesn't necessarily translate into Cooperation and Sharing. Worst case scenario, it just allows those who release the open code and protocols to sit on their High Trojan Horse and say "But look at all the good things we're doing." while not addressing Hannibal and the War Elephants of Forced Duplicated Effort charging down the hall towards the room.
      I agree with you!

      I would also extend that better projects such as Arcan are quite unknown and lack the financial support of Wayland.

      I know I repeat it all time, but I consider Linux deserves better technologies and not those imposed by an OSS mogul bought by a computing mogul.

      FOSS deserves more competition, more collaboration, more diversification, more innovation and better financing.

      Comment


      • #13
        does azure really need this or maybe microsoft is slowly going to switch from the windows kernel to the linux kernel.
        Last edited by hajj_3; 20 November 2023, 06:34 AM.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by hajj_3 View Post
          does azure really need this or maybe microsoft is slowly going to switch from the windows kernel to the windows kernel.
          Im not sure if azure really needs it, but im sure it would help them out. WSL2 needs it however, Hyper-v medium to enterprise can benefit from it, Windows on arm can benefit from it AMD on windows can benefit from it, Xbox can benefit from it. so MS has a lot of motivation

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          • #15
            Originally posted by hajj_3 View Post
            does azure really need this or maybe microsoft is slowly going to switch from the windows kernel to the windows kernel.
            To other Windows kernel written in Rust? Sure! Their kernel is convoluted. Maybe they'lladd a compatibility layer as in Wine.

            Switch to Linux kernel? Don't count on it. Even Google tried to get out by Fuchsia project, but it failed miserably and are cloding parts of AOSP or switch to proprietary frameworks. I don't think Microsoft wants on an external resource they can't 100% control it. Look at OpenAI, I expect Microsoft will buy the 51% left or do some Nokia-like plot

            Comment


            • #16
              Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
              1. Embrace: Development of software substantially compatible with a competing product, or implementing a public standard.
              2. Extend: Addition and promotion of features not supported by the competing product or part of the standard, creating interoperability problems for customers who try to use the "simple" standard.
              3. Extinguish: When extensions become a de facto standard because of their dominant market share, they marginalize competitors that do not or cannot support the new extensions.
              1, 2, & 3 describes what RHEL is trying to do with Wayland and Weston by moving all the heavy Wayland lifting over to GNOME and Mutter to stifle their competition by preventing a centralized project and making everyone reinvent the wheel. From the get-go they could have made Wayland in a manner that benefited everybody, but instead they merely Embraced an in-house technology, Wayland, and turned it into an open standard for everyone. They then Extend the Wayland protocol in ways that suit their needs which makes them look beneficial and benevolent towards everyone, but Extending Wayland is adding only protocols and guidelines, not actually doing something that's tangible, usable, or benefits anyone. They Extinguish by implementing their Extensions in their own window manager, Mutter, while making the reference model, Weston, into something that nobody wants to use so we end up in a situation where companies like AMD aren't able implement a lot of their features on Linux because there is no standard reference Wayland library that anyone can tap into. RHEL does that so people and companies will be forced to Embrace GNOME and Mutter while making it harder to Extend competing projects in hopes that their competition will become Extinguished.

              RHEL's Wayland EEE is why we don't have things like Radeon Super Resolution, better FreeSync, a GUI with video equalization and screen capturing/game streaming, Privacy View, etc. Even if AMD could agree on a graphics toolkit for the mythical AMD GUI, there's no de facto Window Manager or Library to tie into so they'd have to add their sauce to every Wayland window manager. That's not AMD; it's Valve, Intel, NVIDIA...anyone involved with graphics presentation. That's why I really hope that KDE adopts wl-roots into KWin. If a major project like KDE adopts wl-roots, there are greater hopes that other major projects and companies will be more likely to do the same. If that happens then the Wayland Situation might start being solved. Rootful outta help with that, too.

              The Wayland Situation is a big reason why Linux doesn't have nice things. Open Source and Open Protocols doesn't necessarily translate into Cooperation and Sharing. Worst case scenario, it just allows those who release the open code and protocols to sit on their High Trojan Horse and say "But look at all the good things we're doing." while not addressing Hannibal and the War Elephants of Forced Duplicated Effort charging down the hall towards the room.
              Wow, so much text just to say that you have no idea what EEE is and how does it work.

              Open standards (like Wayland) can't do EEE. Your points doesn't make any sense and are completely wrong. Especially that part about how Wayland is supposed to make everybody use GNOME or blocks standardization of things like screen capturing which is already standardized in Wayland with portals. I guess with that logic we can also say that X.Org Server is example of EEE because we used to have different X11 servers but X.Org Server embraced, extended and extinguished them all. Even Linux is example of EEE by that logic, we had many different Unix and Unix-like operating systems but Linux embraced, extended and extinguished them all.
              Last edited by dragon321; 19 November 2023, 05:26 PM.

              Comment


              • #17
                Originally posted by timofonic View Post
                but it failed miserably and are cloding parts of AOSP or switch to proprietary frameworks.
                Nothing about AOSP that actually matters is being deprecated or otherwise removed. Yes, they removed some things like AOSP dialer and keyboardview, but everything they have deprecated, have shown interest in deprecating, has available, and prospering open source alternatives.

                Comment


                • #18
                  Maybe next Microsoft should get it from OpenGL ES 3.1 to 3.2.

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Originally posted by dragon321 View Post
                    Wow, so much text just to say that you have no idea what EEE is and how does it work.
                    Yes, it was an attempt to force a square peg into a round hole.

                    Originally posted by dragon321 View Post
                    ‚ÄčOpen standards (like Wayland) can't do EEE.
                    Depending on what you mean by that, it definitely applies to open standards. The "extend" phase is where someone adds a nonstandard extension to their implementation, but has enough market power to make it defacto-standard.
                    Last edited by coder; 20 November 2023, 03:25 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
                      1. Embrace: Development of software substantially compatible with a competing product, or implementing a public standard.
                      2. Extend: Addition and promotion of features not supported by the competing product or part of the standard, creating interoperability problems for customers who try to use the "simple" standard.
                      3. Extinguish: When extensions become a de facto standard because of their dominant market share, they marginalize competitors that do not or cannot support the new extensions.
                      1, 2, & 3 describes what RHEL is trying to do with Wayland and Weston by moving all the heavy Wayland lifting over to GNOME and Mutter to stifle their competition by preventing a centralized project and making everyone reinvent the wheel. From the get-go they could have made Wayland in a manner that benefited everybody, but instead they merely Embraced an in-house technology, Wayland, and turned it into an open standard for everyone. They then Extend the Wayland protocol in ways that suit their needs which makes them look beneficial and benevolent towards everyone, but Extending Wayland is adding only protocols and guidelines, not actually doing something that's tangible, usable, or benefits anyone. They Extinguish by implementing their Extensions in their own window manager, Mutter, while making the reference model, Weston, into something that nobody wants to use so we end up in a situation where companies like AMD aren't able implement a lot of their features on Linux because there is no standard reference Wayland library that anyone can tap into. RHEL does that so people and companies will be forced to Embrace GNOME and Mutter while making it harder to Extend competing projects in hopes that their competition will become Extinguished.

                      RHEL's Wayland EEE is why we don't have things like Radeon Super Resolution, better FreeSync, a GUI with video equalization and screen capturing/game streaming, Privacy View, etc. Even if AMD could agree on a graphics toolkit for the mythical AMD GUI, there's no de facto Window Manager or Library to tie into so they'd have to add their sauce to every Wayland window manager. That's not AMD; it's Valve, Intel, NVIDIA...anyone involved with graphics presentation. That's why I really hope that KDE adopts wl-roots into KWin. If a major project like KDE adopts wl-roots, there are greater hopes that other major projects and companies will be more likely to do the same. If that happens then the Wayland Situation might start being solved. Rootful outta help with that, too.

                      The Wayland Situation is a big reason why Linux doesn't have nice things. Open Source and Open Protocols doesn't necessarily translate into Cooperation and Sharing. Worst case scenario, it just allows those who release the open code and protocols to sit on their High Trojan Horse and say "But look at all the good things we're doing." while not addressing Hannibal and the War Elephants of Forced Duplicated Effort charging down the hall towards the room.
                      I am glad kinda KDE exist because it prevents a lot that EEE. I would say redhat luckly is not big enough to make EEE. GPU manufacturers want too much explicit synchronization and stuff, while KDE/Wlroots and others wants a lot of stuff they need.

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