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GNOME Merge Requests Opened That Would Drop X.Org Session Support

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  • Originally posted by Panda_Wrist View Post

    Could I ask you and all the others that have a problem with wayland to please stop saying, "its incomplete" and "missing so many crucial features". Things like that means wayland would therefore be unusable. That is clearly a lie. I've been using sway for the past 5 years, so wayland is in fact usable. Which means it is, in fact not incomplete or missing crucial features. You guys that have problems with wayland, should instead say "Wayland is missing stuff "I WANT""
    Anecdotal evidence is a false argument. But oh boy it's so popular among Linux fans.

    "It works for me, thus it works for everyone".

    The last time I said something like that I was 5 years of age.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by avis View Post

      Name me a single person or organization hacked due to Xorg vulnerabilities or an "insecure" architecture which Wayland fans constantly talk about. I dare you.
      Yeah I guess you're right, I guess everyone should keep using it even after it's completely unmaintained. Maybe nobody will find bugs in it even though they've been doing that a lot recently. And if they do find bugs? Well maybe the hackers will be Xorg supporters and just won't try to exploit any known holes for the sake of it, that would be nice of them wouldn't it?
      Like jesus christ, do you not keep a fire extinguisher in your house because your house never burned down before? You are genuinely delusional.

      Originally posted by avis View Post

      Sorry, I've skipped the rest of your comment because you started it with an insult and outrageously false statement because there's a ton of people or orgs interested in Xorg being secure for at least a decade more.


      Oh you're just trolling, I'll ignore your future responses, then.

      Comment


      • So Gnome is going the same way as Plasma 6 by removing X11 support. Expecting this transition, I have been using AMD, Wayland, Plasma combination since several years now. Yawn

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        • Originally posted by avis View Post

          Anecdotal evidence is a false argument. But oh boy it's so popular among Linux fans.

          "It works for me, thus it works for everyone".

          The last time I said something like that I was 5 years of age.
          I never said "it works for everyone". I said it works. Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it is incomplete or missing crucial features. What I said is that "ITS MISSING STUFF YOU WANT" . just because its missing stuff "YOU WANT" does not mean wayland is unusable. It is very much indeed usable for many people. Clearly not for all people but that doesn't mean its unusable. which is what "missing many crucial features" means.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Ironmask View Post
            Oh you're just trolling, I'll ignore your future responses, then.
            I've been sarcastic, but I've never trolled. But thank you for ignoring me from now on. If you check my messages here you'll find out that they receive far too many likes for someone who you baselessly and shamelessly accuse of trolling.

            Anyways, thank you. I prefer to talk to people who use rationale and solid arguments and deal with the status quo. Your comment strongly indicated you were referring to a purely imaginary situation and sorry I don't care.

            And please stick to your words.

            Originally posted by Panda_Wrist View Post

            I never said "it works for everyone". I said it works. Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it is incomplete or missing crucial features. What I said is that "ITS MISSING STUFF YOU WANT" . just because its missing stuff "YOU WANT" does not mean wayland is unusable. It is very much indeed usable for many people. Clearly not for all people but that doesn't mean its unusable. which is what "missing many crucial features" means.
            And I've never said it doesn't work completely or is completely unusable.

            I'd like to mention that currently XFCE users (the third most popular DE in Linux) can't use Wayland but who cares? It works for you.

            KDE users have a lot of issues https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Showstoppers (it's a very incomplete list, refer to KDE bugzilla for more) but again it works for you.

            Gnome under Wayland has yet to reach feature parity with Xorg and some features are still missing but it works for you.

            Anyways, Wayland is perfect, the future is bright, Xorg is "dead" and "insecure" and I'll just walk away from this discussion. It's just too hollow for my liking.
            Last edited by avis; 09 October 2023, 07:52 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by You- View Post
              which merge request? I would like to see.

              But isnt merging the code evidence that they CAN and DO admit it if they are wrong?

              Surely if your sentiment was true, they would never merge it?
              The idle inhibitor calls Inhibit and UnInhibit methods of org.freedesktop.Screensaver when the surface is not obscured or when it is obscured respectively. Tested with mpv /mnt/devel/mpv-build/mpv/build/mpv...


              Less than 400 loc. All Wayland compositors except mutter and some toy implementations have supported that protocol for years.
              Last edited by sindex; 09 October 2023, 07:51 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by avis View Post

                I've been sarcastic, but I've never trolled. But thank you for ignoring me from now on. If you check my messages here you'll find out that they receive far too many likes for someone who you baselessly and shamelessly accuse of trolling.

                Anyways, thank you. I prefer to talk to people who use rationale and solid arguments and deal with the status quo. Your comment strongly indicated you were referring to a purely imaginary situation and sorry I don't care.

                And please stick to your words.



                And I've never said it doesn't work completely or is completely unusable.
                But you did say "it's missing many crucial features". How are those features crucial while wayland is still working? If they were crucial, wayland wouldn't work. So they are not crucial. They are just features you want. So wayland is not missing crucial features, its just missing stuff you want.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by avis View Post

                  I'd like to mention that currently XFCE users (the third most popular DE in Linux) can't use Wayland but who cares? It works for you.

                  KDE users have a lot of issues https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Showstoppers but again it works for you.

                  Gnome under Wayland has yet to reach feature parity with Xorg and some features are still missing but it works for you.
                  I never said it doesn't have problems. You say X works for you. I had many problems with X. No matter what I tried, I always had tearing in firefox. I switched to gnome wayland and the tearing went away. I eventually went to sway and been happy since.

                  Wayland has problems and X has problems, neither is perfect for everyone. I just want you wayland haters to stop saying its incomplete and missing many crucial features. Those things are not crucial for everyone and apparently not crucial to the wayland devs. they are just things you people want.

                  also notice i never mentioned X until now.

                  EDIT:
                  To be clear. I want you to start saying "Wayland is missing stuff I want." not stuff like the first quote "missing many crucial features" that makes it sounds like its missing stuff that everyone needs. it is not. It is just missing stuff you need.
                  Last edited by Panda_Wrist; 09 October 2023, 07:59 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ironmask View Post

                    Yeah I guess you're right, I guess everyone should keep using it even after it's completely unmaintained. Maybe nobody will find bugs in it even though they've been doing that a lot recently. And if they do find bugs? Well maybe the hackers will be Xorg supporters and just won't try to exploit any known holes for the sake of it, that would be nice of them wouldn't it?
                    Like jesus christ, do you not keep a fire extinguisher in your house because your house never burned down before? You are genuinely delusional.



                    Oh you're just trolling, I'll ignore your future responses, then.
                    Why don't you answer his question and tell us what are the exploits that have been made due to the Xorg vulnerabilities? Is it because there are none?

                    Also, would any vulnerabilities be an issue if distros and desktops were all running Xorg rootless like they are supposed to? The fact that numerous major projects run Xorg in the most insecure way possible, as root, shouldn't be held against Xorg.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by andyprough View Post

                      Why don't you answer his question and tell us what are the exploits that have been made due to the Xorg vulnerabilities? Is it because there are none?

                      Also, would any vulnerabilities be an issue if distros and desktops were all running Xorg rootless like they are supposed to? The fact that numerous major projects run Xorg in the most insecure way possible, as root, shouldn't be held against Xorg.
                      You don't seem to be aware of what a security vulnerability is, so let me explain this in simple terms:

                      Xorg - BIG attack surface - very scary, not good!
                      Xorg stop getting patches, exploits no longer fixed, very scary!

                      Xorg is massive, it contains so many superfluous parts that it's not even funny. No, not running as root doesn't matter, privilege escalation was, is, and always will be a thing. No, just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't, especially when it comes to networking software. If - and when, because when is coming very soon - Xorg stops being maintained, and gets a privilege escalation bug, thats it, game over. There would be nobody with training for the Xorg codebase, nobody to patch it. It would be cheaper to move over to Wayland than to hire people to patch it.
                      What do you not understand about this? It's not like a security vulnerability is something cute. Companies can lose their entire business over this, look at what log4j did. It's not about "oh this software was a vulnerability for another company so dont use it, otherwise its fine", companies *cannot* have vulnerabilities, they *must* avoid any, even potential ones.
                      What do you think this wave of "zero trust environments" is? What do you think Rust is? The world is increasingly becoming concerned with security. This isn't my own paranoid take, this is the state of the world. A world ruled by technology where entire countries can have their secrets leaked and infrastructure gutted by a high-speed equivalent of a fucking phone call. Companies are not going to neglect that over being a fanboy of an ancient display server. And distros are not going to be responsible for that either. It's called mitigation. All unsupported software is bad - no, just because some exists doesn't mean its okay for more to exist.

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