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Servo Browser Engine Enables New Default UI, Improves Crash Error Page, Replaces OpenSSL

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  • Quackdoc
    replied
    Originally posted by arQon View Post

    My bad: I thought it was so obvious it didn't need explanation. You were talking about WebGPU as a "good middle ground", which it may be, but it's no more suitable for general game work etc than a VW Bug is for towing a house. There are people unfamiliar enough with the industry to read "a few games use it now" as you putting it in the same general class as Unreal etc, rather than 2D shooters or Rocket League etc. It doesn't make them "not games", but the gulf is enormous.
    that is completely and utterly absurd, webgpu was designed around being a proper opengl replacement for game development. with wider platform support and whatnot. mind you the spec is still being worked on, and wgpu even more so, but to imply that it's not suitable for "General game work" is completely and utterly absurd

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  • arQon
    replied
    Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post
    what the hell does this even mean?
    My bad: I thought it was so obvious it didn't need explanation. You were talking about WebGPU as a "good middle ground", which it may be, but it's no more suitable for general game work etc than a VW Bug is for towing a house. There are people unfamiliar enough with the industry to read "a few games use it now" as you putting it in the same general class as Unreal etc, rather than 2D shooters or Rocket League etc. It doesn't make them "not games", but the gulf is enormous.

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  • Quackdoc
    replied
    Originally posted by arQon View Post

    If you're trying to relate that to Real Actual game renderers in some way, you're talking about such a wide difference in scope there that it just doesn't apply at all.
    what the hell does this even mean? are you implying that games like veloren, or game engines like bevy don't use actual game renderers? what the fuck is an "actual game renderer" then!?!?

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  • arQon
    replied
    Originally posted by betam4x View Post
    As someone who used to be all hot and heavy into OpenGL and DirectX until Vulkan/DX12 were released, I encourage you folks that are uninformed to look at what it takes to render a simple triangle in OpenGL [etc]"
    Not in reference to the GP here, but the majority of the uninformed posters wouldn't be able to understand anything but the line count, if that. It's a tech-heavy site, but the forums are about 90% user, 9% sysadmin/hw/etc, 0.9% developer.

    > Graphics APIs are a mess

    Yes, they are, and pretty much always have been. :/ (GL1.2 was decent, GLSL was good, and D3D9 was decent too). How VK looks today I couldn't say, but a LOT of it comes from churn cloning DX12 features for the last several years, so it certainly isn't anything like as clean and simple as it was originally.
    Last edited by arQon; 28 September 2023, 06:21 AM.

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  • arQon
    replied
    Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post
    rust's webgpu (wgpu.rs) is really nice to work with, i've been using it for a couple projects now, a few games use it now. it's a really good middle ground as long as you are willing to cope with growing issues since it's still quite immature. better then opengl IMO
    If you're trying to relate that to Real Actual game renderers in some way, you're talking about such a wide difference in scope there that it just doesn't apply at all.

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  • arQon
    replied
    Originally posted by shmerl View Post
    I want to see Vulkan rendering used in Firefox / Servo instead of OpenGL.
    Well, yes, but actually no. :/

    TLDR, it absolutely SHOULD switch, but Mozilla will basically have to reimplement something so close to GL that it very likely isn't worth it. They'll end up with a handful of fast paths in a sea of sludge - enough to post a micro-benchmark "win" on a blog page ("this element renders 20x faster: other stuff will be faster too later") but not enough to really be measurably better overall for any real use - and certainly not enough to beat chrome on all the chrome-friendly tests, and that's what "matters".

    That's ignoring how much more work VK is, and how many years they've already sunk into GL, and whether or not they've even got VK-capable staff in the first place So it's a much less desirable choice than you'd really like, and on a practical level it would be at best an open question.

    Certainly interested in seeing how far it goes though. Someone felt it might pose a threat to Chrome someday, and I'd love to see it show up AS a browser (or at least, as a completed engine) someday just to compare. Webkit would be my stepping stone there though. Get that replaced and (a) you instantly improved thousands of packages; and then (b) get a ton of new beta testers.

    Imagine though: say Servo does get done. At that point, you only need to add JS support and the world's shittiest UI and you've got a browser. We get a third engine in what's left of the browser market, and in theory one with a massively-better maintenance / patchability state. Get it certified and into govt and you could potentially reverse at least a small piece of the enshittification of the Web.

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  • Quackdoc
    replied
    Originally posted by rmfx View Post
    Thanks, they did the right choice with a new layout code then.
    Many projects would have chosen the easy now, let’s see later path.

    I was expecting the final binaries to be lighter than that too. Like a webengine can’t be that tiny anymore it seems. But when it’s ready, I’m sure that it will be a good alternative to qtwebengine!
    keep in mind that
    A) Gstreamer sucks so that's a fair amount of extra bloat (as I alluded to earlier, this can be fixed thanks to servo-media having modular backend, or you could just not compule gstreamer). this accounts to likely half the file size, at least it does on windows. (don't forget that gstreamer also bundles ffmpeg libs often)
    B) keep in mind this shares a lot of stuff with firefox still, Mozjs, Webrender etc. this is very much a fully fledged, many featured browser, even if all of the features and stuff is not exposed or broken.
    C) these might not be optimized properly, things like stripping and compile time optimizations and what not
    D) also just keep in mind there likely simply hasn't been a lot of thought put into keeping filesize down yet

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  • rmfx
    replied
    Thanks, they did the right choice with a new layout code then.
    Many projects would have chosen the easy now, let’s see later path.

    I was expecting the final binaries to be lighter than that too. Like a webengine can’t be that tiny anymore it seems. But when it’s ready, I’m sure that it will be a good alternative to qtwebengine!

    Leave a comment:


  • Quackdoc
    replied
    Originally posted by rmfx View Post
    I tried it, cool project but no websites I tried was displayed properly. Also, even with their official demo, it was stuttering.
    Did I miss something?
    Phoronix: Servo Browser Engine Enables New Default UI, Improves Crash Error Page, Replaces OpenSSL The Servo web rendering engine that is written in Rust and started originally by Mozilla while now being developed as a Linux Foundation Europe project has issued a status update around recent changes to this memory-safe and


    Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
    Unfortunately writing graphics APIs is hard, and nobody really seems all that interested in experimenting around with new higher-level engines on top of vulkan. The best the OSS world has come up with is Zink, which just re-implements all of OpenGLs flaws.
    rust's webgpu (wgpu.rs) is really nice to work with, i've been using it for a couple projects now, a few games use it now. it's a really good middle ground as long as you are willing to cope with growing issues since it's still quite immature. better then opengl IMO

    Leave a comment:


  • ehofman
    replied
    Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
    Unfortunately writing graphics APIs is hard, and nobody really seems all that interested in experimenting around with new higher-level engines on top of vulkan. The best the OSS world has come up with is Zink, which just re-implements all of OpenGLs flaws.
    Well, there's VulkanSceneGraph:

    Leave a comment:

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