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System76 COSMIC Desktop Ironing Out Support For Themes, Application API

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  • blackiwid
    replied
    Originally posted by CochainComplex View Post
    Maybe we should ask: Finally the year of the Linux Desktop approaching ;D ?
    I think the statement is a framing and nearly straw-manning in itself, if we would ask the year of linux as enduser plattform, that would be a much more open question, it doesn't smuggle in the specific solution to the problem, like to enduser to use it it must be a "Desktop".

    Now Android is very successful, yet it's no classical desktop, or let's look at steam full-screen, also with steamos very successful but also no real "desktop".

    Why do we use the word that points to something similar to windows 95 or so. Why does the question include the answer. What if tomorrow people would all switch to linux but use Sway, sway is a tiling wm no desktop... would that not be the year of the linux desktop/dominance?

    Or let's look at Chromium it's basically a fullscreen browser no real desktop, Is it the year of the linux OS for End users, that would be the more precise or more important question that doesn't discount dominance just because it's not like a windows 95 Desktop.

    So let's think a world where steamos becomes the primary gaming platform which could happen, much more likely than let's say Ubuntu, are there more "Desktop non-gaming users" many people today do 99-100% of what people did on computers with smartphones.

    So I think especially with the overprised Graphics cards Desktop users will be mostly developers and designers only, the rest will use steam decks and the competitors from Asus and soon lenovo or smartphones and switch boxes. And if you have only developers use "desktops" then why not should Linux have shot for that?

    Leave a comment:


  • Quackdoc
    replied
    Originally posted by sophisticles View Post

    What?!? You want to sell S76 machines?!? So your plan is to buy them from System76 and the resell them at presumably a profit?

    Why would anyone buy a S76 machine from you and not buy it directly from them?
    Because that is fundamentally how computer stores operate. the same could be said about literally any other computer we sell, we charge a decent markup, and provide services in exchange for that.

    As for selling custom, hand built machines, I think you, like the System76 people, might be about 30 years too late.

    Here's the cold reality, the economy sucks, there's no liquidity in the economy, inflation is still running historically high, wages are trending downward and most people do not have the disposable income to impulse buy.
    And yet people are still buying computers.

    Add to that the Linux users tend to be DIYers and then factor in that most surveys have Linux use at less than 1% of the total desktop market, and you end up with the reality that your intended client base is non-existent.
    That's not how this works, People buy what is available to them, they go to walmart, they go to bestbuy, or the small town computer store, and buy often what they recommend if their budget is fine. My client base is the people who go into a PC store, buy a PC, go home and use it. My client base doesn't care if it's windows, chromebook or osx.

    I don't even have to look at System76's P&L to know they are not making any money.

    When you consider that once COSMIC is released every other major distros will have spins featuring it within a week, there go their, and your, potential clients.
    I can't say how much profit they make, or loose, but considering they haven't gone under I wouldn't say it's a terrible situation for them. Cosmic is not the only selling point of popOS.

    Leave a comment:


  • sophisticles
    replied
    Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post

    As someone who want's to look into selling S76 machines either their machines or my own hand built ones, this would absolutely make it so I would not bother selling them. I know others feel the same way I do. PopOS already has a competitive edge compared to other distros in the effort and polish going into it. Gnome has been a major turn off for me due to it's poor performance and the absolute absurd amount of effort needed to be dumped into customization. which is necessary for supporting A11y to any proper degree.

    Cosmic can be potentially what puts S76 machines into my customers hands. Pop OS doesn't need killer apps. it just needs to be easy to offer support for. every other distro has major problems in this regard but pop could be the distro that's different. as it stands, Selling windows PCs is expensive for any reputable compute salesmen. because we also have to support these machines. and oh boy they need a lot of support lately.

    Most Issues I have with pop are already solvable. I hate their choice for default bootloader. I hate gnome. I don't like how outdated some apps can be, (pains of a more stable OS I suppose). A little too much pre-installed stuff last I checked. and soome other nits. all of these are easily solvable with a couple scripts and flatpak.
    What?!? You want to sell S76 machines?!? So your plan is to buy them from System76 and the resell them at presumably a profit?

    Why would anyone buy a S76 machine from you and not buy it directly from them?

    As for selling custom, hand built machines, I think you, like the System76 people, might be about 30 years too late.

    Here's the cold reality, the economy sucks, there's no liquidity in the economy, inflation is still running historically high, wages are trending downward and most people do not have the disposable income to impulse buy.

    Add to that the Linux users tend to be DIYers and then factor in that most surveys have Linux use at less than 1% of the total desktop market, and you end up with the reality that your intended client base is non-existent.

    I don't even have to look at System76's P&L to know they are not making any money.

    When you consider that once COSMIC is released every other major distros will have spins featuring it within a week, there go their, and your, potential clients.

    Leave a comment:


  • sophisticles
    replied
    Originally posted by mmstick View Post
    Then this is a fundamental misunderstanding in how businesses operate. As you may learn from an Econ. or Bus. course: profit is an output, not a purpose. Profit is a means for the purpose, rather than being the purpose itself. Successful businesses have a reason to exist that goes beyond mere profit. Businesses whose purpose are to extract profit are an exception, not the rule. These usually call themselves "money managers" or "investment groups".
    You know who disagrees with you? The IRS:

    Discover the tax insights you need! Uncover the answer to How many years can I claim a loss on my business?' for optimal financial planning.


    IRS business loss rules say you can claim a loss in two out of five years, no problem. Beyond that the IRS will look at whether your company is a business or just a hobby. If it's a hobby, the income is taxable, but expenses are not deductible.


    By law, the purpose of a business is to make a profit, that is all. If you own a business you can only claim a loss 3 out of 5 tax years, if you loss money for more than 3 out of 5 years then the IRS will reclassify your business as a hobby, for an LLC it's 2 years max.

    This line "profit is an output, not a purpose" is some liberal hippie nonsense that some drug addicted loser dreamt up while stoned on mushrooms.

    Originally posted by mmstick View Post
    Which is fine. System76's purpose is being successfully fulfilled.
    So System76's purpose is to not make a dime? Fine by me, not my investment.

    But if they want to change the world, they should try and make as much money as possible and then if they want to donate all the profits to charities, so be it, hell I used to volunteer as a CMA in an Oncology Unit and I donate to Saint Jude's every month, I have no problem with trying to help out your fellow man.

    But that is separate and distinct from business, the sole purpose of a business is to make as much money as possible.

    Leave a comment:


  • Quackdoc
    replied
    Originally posted by sophisticles View Post

    I think you misunderstood, the killer apps would not be for COSMIC, they would be for POP!_OS.

    Releasing a closed source DE for an open source OS is no more pointless than releasing any other closed source software for Linux.

    We already have closed source, proprietary, native Linux builds for a number of games, Resolve, Lightworks, etc, why should the DE be any different?

    The point is that System76 is a business that in theory wants to make as much money as possible and by selling generic looking computers, with off the shelf commodity hardware, at higher prices than more establish brands than Dell or HP and then they limit their potential client base by installing an OS that according to Steam surveys has less than 1% usage among what is probably one of their largest potential client base.

    System76 doesn't offer anything unique to attract a robust, sustainable client base. If they turn around and release COSMIC as open source, which is obvious they are going to do, within a month they will lose any competitive advantage as it shows up in other distros' repositories and we see COSMIC spins of Arch, Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, OpenSuse, et al.

    Look at the comments in this thread, there are people that they can't wait to try COSMIC not they can't wait to buy a System76 computer.

    What they will do is what I will do, once POP!_OS with COSMIC is released I will download the iso, burn it to a thumb drive and take it for a spin and if i like it I will install it on a system that I custom built for for a lot less than a System76 PC.

    Note that none of that puts a dime in System76's pocket.
    As someone who want's to look into selling S76 machines either their machines or my own hand built ones, this would absolutely make it so I would not bother selling them. I know others feel the same way I do. PopOS already has a competitive edge compared to other distros in the effort and polish going into it. Gnome has been a major turn off for me due to it's poor performance and the absolute absurd amount of effort needed to be dumped into customization. which is necessary for supporting A11y to any proper degree.

    Cosmic can be potentially what puts S76 machines into my customers hands. Pop OS doesn't need killer apps. it just needs to be easy to offer support for. every other distro has major problems in this regard but pop could be the distro that's different. as it stands, Selling windows PCs is expensive for any reputable compute salesmen. because we also have to support these machines. and oh boy they need a lot of support lately.

    Most Issues I have with pop are already solvable. I hate their choice for default bootloader. I hate gnome. I don't like how outdated some apps can be, (pains of a more stable OS I suppose). A little too much pre-installed stuff last I checked. and soome other nits. all of these are easily solvable with a couple scripts and flatpak.

    Leave a comment:


  • mmstick
    replied
    Originally posted by sophisticles View Post
    The point is that System76 is a business that in theory wants to make as much money as possible
    Then this is a fundamental misunderstanding in how businesses operate. As you may learn from an Econ. or Bus. course: profit is an output, not a purpose. Profit is a means for the purpose, rather than being the purpose itself. Successful businesses have a reason to exist that goes beyond mere profit. Businesses whose purpose are to extract profit are an exception, not the rule. These usually call themselves "money managers" or "investment groups".

    What they will do is what I will do, once POP!_OS with COSMIC is released I will download the iso, burn it to a thumb drive and take it for a spin and if i like it I will install it on a system that I custom built for for a lot less than a System76 PC.
    Which is fine. System76's purpose is being successfully fulfilled.
    Last edited by mmstick; 16 August 2023, 01:39 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • sophisticles
    replied
    Originally posted by mmstick View Post
    sophisticles It's not necessary for a desktop environment to have exclusive or killer applications. The purpose of the desktop environment is to provide a stable, useful, intuitive, and efficient system interface for running desktop applications on top of it. Having some killer applications written in the desktop environment's toolkit doesn't change much. Plenty of people install Krita on GNOME, and GIMP on Plasma. A killer feature for a desktop environment would be the ability to run games at higher framerates with less input latency, supporting the latest display technologies, or being able to run efficiently on older or low power devices.

    Releasing a closed source desktop environment on an open source desktop platform is also pointless.
    I think you misunderstood, the killer apps would not be for COSMIC, they would be for POP!_OS.

    Releasing a closed source DE for an open source OS is no more pointless than releasing any other closed source software for Linux.

    We already have closed source, proprietary, native Linux builds for a number of games, Resolve, Lightworks, etc, why should the DE be any different?

    The point is that System76 is a business that in theory wants to make as much money as possible and by selling generic looking computers, with off the shelf commodity hardware, at higher prices than more establish brands than Dell or HP and then they limit their potential client base by installing an OS that according to Steam surveys has less than 1% usage among what is probably one of their largest potential client base.

    System76 doesn't offer anything unique to attract a robust, sustainable client base. If they turn around and release COSMIC as open source, which is obvious they are going to do, within a month they will lose any competitive advantage as it shows up in other distros' repositories and we see COSMIC spins of Arch, Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, OpenSuse, et al.

    Look at the comments in this thread, there are people that they can't wait to try COSMIC not they can't wait to buy a System76 computer.

    What they will do is what I will do, once POP!_OS with COSMIC is released I will download the iso, burn it to a thumb drive and take it for a spin and if i like it I will install it on a system that I custom built for for a lot less than a System76 PC.

    Note that none of that puts a dime in System76's pocket.

    Leave a comment:


  • rmfx
    replied
    Originally posted by mmstick View Post
    sophisticles It's not necessary for a desktop environment to have exclusive or killer applications. The purpose of the desktop environment is to provide a stable, useful, intuitive, and efficient system interface for running desktop applications on top of it. Having some killer applications written in the desktop environment's toolkit doesn't change much. Plenty of people install Krita on GNOME, and GIMP on Plasma. A killer feature for a desktop environment would be the ability to run games at higher framerates with less input latency, supporting the latest display technologies, or being able to run efficiently on older or low power devices.

    Releasing a closed source desktop environment on an open source desktop platform is also pointless.
    Agree totally. The only apps cosmic really needs in the end are:

    cosmic-text-editor
    cosmic-files or file-manager
    cosmic-terminal
    cosmic-system-monitor
    cosmic-image-viewer
    cosmic-screenshot
    cosmic-app-manager (to manage flatpaks and native installs)
    ...maybe cosmic-calculator and cosmic-archive?

    For more advanced/specific app types, it should not be part of the DE project.‚Äč
    That's where KDE (and even gnome) imho went way too far with their many apps to somehow support.
    Last edited by rmfx; 15 August 2023, 01:49 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • mmstick
    replied
    sophisticles It's not necessary for a desktop environment to have exclusive or killer applications. The purpose of the desktop environment is to provide a stable, useful, intuitive, and efficient system interface for running desktop applications on top of it. Having some killer applications written in the desktop environment's toolkit doesn't change much. Plenty of people install Krita on GNOME, and GIMP on Plasma. A killer feature for a desktop environment would be the ability to run games at higher framerates with less input latency, supporting the latest display technologies, or being able to run efficiently on older or low power devices.

    Releasing a closed source desktop environment on an open source desktop platform is also pointless.
    Last edited by mmstick; 14 August 2023, 04:18 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • sophisticles
    replied
    All this is well and good but unless they have one or two exclusive "killer" apps for this DE, then it will be another also-ran.

    Here's the reality, these people are in the business to make money, in theory at least, yet everything they do has the feel of an idealistic young college kid that thinks nonprofits are the greatest thing since sliced bread and thinks that everything must be open source.

    In case any executive from this company stumbles upon this thread, here is some business advice:

    1) Make this COSMIC desktop closed source, proprietary and only available to your customers. If you don't then within a few months you will have spins of various distros like Ubuntu and Fedora that feature this DE and that eliminates a big selling point for your computers.

    2) Develop one or two exclusive "killer" apps that are only available for your systems.

    4) I can not emphasize this one enough, change the styling of your systems.

    Here's the thing, the name of your company and your website clearly makes, or used to make, reference to 1776, the Revolutionary War, Independence, and blah blah, some idealistic bullshit, blah blah; I suggest you embrace this 1776 idealism and run with it.

    Here's what i would do:

    1) Every system would employ a patriotic theme reminiscent of 1776 and The Grand Union Flag.

    2) I would start with 76 numbered laptops, each with a Red, White and Blue case, each with a flag on the lid and each individually numbered in the center of the flag, from 1 to 76. I would advertise them as a one time thing, sure to be a collectors' item, with the prices varying depending on which one you buy, and the 76th one being the most expensive.

    3) This theming would carry over to the OS, each one would have a custom theme and lettering to reflect the number on the lid. The 76th one would have the most ostentatious boot screen and styling.

    After that first run was a huge success, I would extend the basic premise to all my systems and then expand it for people living in other countries, by offering computers themed in the style of their countries' flag, and what i would also do is only sell computers styled with a particular countries' flag to addresses in that country, for instance only an address in Japan could buy a Japanese themed computer.

    I think you could transform System76 into a 100 million dollar company in 5 years.

    Think about it.

    Leave a comment:

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