Mozilla Firefox 116 Now Available - Capable Of Wayland-Only Builds

[smitty3268]

Which part of "I don't want anything related to X11 in my Linux" screamed by -MacNuke- you failed to understand?

God, this is pathetic.

The part where what some rando decides to install on their personal machine seemingly matters so much to you? Seriously, I don't care one bit what you decide to run on your machine. And i don't care what MacNuke runs either....

If i tell you I plan to uninstall OpenOffice tonight because I'd prefer to try another option, are you going to start yelling at me too?

[ultimA]

I will not read past that.

Honestly? You realize what you did is basically:
You: Show me where I was offensive or inappropriate..
Me: You said this-and-that in exactly these-and-those posts.
You: I will not read that.

I'm not sure I've seen anyone more childish and ignorant in these forums.

And as for your supposed-proof of where I'm wrong: All you've proven is that you have no packages currently installed that pull in X11. Try installing openssh and it will pull in x11 libs on debian/ubuntu. Try installing qbittorrent and use it in headless mode, it will pull in x11. Try installing cuda support on a headless compute server, it will pull in X11. For starters. So you're completely beside the point and trying to assert something irrelevant, derailing the topic at hand.

Yes, there are ways around it sometimes. For openssh, you can use --no-install-recommends, for qbittorrent you can use "-nox" packages from unoffical sources. I only said that when you want a headless setup you don't want to pull in x11 even though many packages want to. Unless you've taken some extra or even unsupported steps, and that is annoying. The same kind of annoyance when you're on a non-headless computer and you prefer not to install X11, especially if it won't get used anyway. At least FF won't get in the way now which is nice, and hopefully others will follow in the future. It has nothing to do with what you happen to have installed on your computer.

And yes it is often a problem of how apps get packaged by maintainers and not because the app actually requires X11. But FF actually did, now it doesn't and it can now get packaged for wayland-only.

[avis]

The X-server consists of more than just its executable. It has countless libraries and modules, some are data, some are code. These are the stuff that external apps and libs rely on. It is very often the case you install something and it tries to pull it all those megabytes and dozens of packages from X11. Yes it won't pull in the executable itself. Doesn't change the truth or validity of what I said.

I will not read past that.

This entire paragraph is a load of pristine BS coming from a person who probably started using Linux a few years ago.

The Xorg server is a distinct package and libX11 applications need no part of it, whatsoever. That's a fucking fact. Considering you don't even get the basics right I am now ending this discussion with you. I prefer to deal with people who 1) know the subject 2) don't make stuff up 3) don't change their testimonials 4) don't throw baseless accusations.

Because I'm a person of my word, here's an example of deleting the entire fucking Xorg from my system, it's my actual Fedora 38 installation with Firefox I'm typing this comment from:

dnf remove `rpm -qa | grep xorg`
Dependencies resolved.
================================================================================
 Package                  Arch     Version                     Repository  Size
================================================================================
Removing:
 xorg-x11-drv-ati         x86_64   19.1.0-9.fc38               @fedora    503 k
 xorg-x11-drv-evdev       x86_64   2.10.6-13.fc38              @fedora     78 k
 xorg-x11-drv-intel       x86_64   2.99.917-55.20210115.fc38   @fedora    2.1 M
 xorg-x11-drv-libinput    x86_64   1.3.0-1.fc38                @updates    98 k
 xorg-x11-drv-vesa        x86_64   2.5.0-5.fc38                @fedora     34 k
 xorg-x11-font-utils      x86_64   1:7.5-55.fc38               @fedora    221 k
 xorg-x11-proto-devel     noarch   2022.2-3.fc38               @fedora    1.7 M
 xorg-x11-server-Xephyr   x86_64   1.20.14-23.fc38             @updates   2.3 M
 xorg-x11-server-Xnest    x86_64   1.20.14-23.fc38             @updates   1.5 M
 xorg-x11-server-Xorg     x86_64   1.20.14-23.fc38             @updates   3.7 M
 xorg-x11-server-common   x86_64   1.20.14-23.fc38             @updates   127 k
 xorg-x11-twm             x86_64   1:1.0.11-3.fc36             @fedora    259 k
 xorg-x11-xauth           x86_64   1:1.1.2-3.fc38              @fedora     64 k
 xorg-x11-xbitmaps        noarch   1.1.2-3.fc38                @fedora    179 k
 xorg-x11-xinit           x86_64   1.4.0-17.fc38               @fedora    129 k
Removing dependent packages:
 SDL2-devel               i686     2.26.3-1.fc38               @fedora    2.7 M
 SDL2-devel               x86_64   2.26.3-1.fc38               @fedora    2.8 M
 freeglut-devel           x86_64   3.4.0-2.fc38                @fedora    2.3 M
 gkrellm-devel            x86_64   2.3.11-11.fc38              @fedora     61 k
 gtk2-devel               x86_64   2.24.33-13.fc38             @fedora     24 M
 libX11-devel             i686     1.8.6-1.fc38                @updates   1.0 M
 libXScrnSaver-devel      x86_64   1.2.3-12.fc38               @fedora    9.9 k
 libXau-devel             i686     1.0.11-2.fc38               @fedora    6.4 k
 libXau-devel             x86_64   1.0.11-2.fc38               @fedora    6.4 k
 libXcomposite-devel      i686     0.4.5-9.fc38                @fedora    7.9 k
 libXcomposite-devel      x86_64   0.4.5-9.fc38                @fedora    7.9 k
 libXcursor-devel         i686     1.2.1-3.fc38                @fedora     22 k
 libXcursor-devel         x86_64   1.2.1-3.fc38                @fedora     22 k
 libXdamage-devel         i686     1.1.5-9.fc38                @fedora    2.5 k
 libXdamage-devel         x86_64   1.1.5-9.fc38                @fedora    2.5 k
 libXext-devel            i686     1.3.5-2.fc38                @fedora     99 k
 libXext-devel            x86_64   1.3.5-2.fc38                @fedora     99 k
 libXfixes-devel          i686     6.0.0-5.fc38                @fedora    9.2 k
 libXfixes-devel          x86_64   6.0.0-5.fc38                @fedora    9.2 k
 libXft-devel             i686     2.3.8-2.fc38                @updates    32 k
 libXft-devel             x86_64   2.3.8-2.fc38                @updates    32 k
 libXi-devel              i686     1.8.1-1.fc38                @updates   133 k
 libXinerama-devel        i686     1.1.5-2.fc38                @fedora    7.0 k
 libXinerama-devel        x86_64   1.1.5-2.fc38                @fedora    7.0 k
 libXpm-devel             i686     3.5.15-3.fc38               @fedora     84 k
 libXpm-devel             x86_64   3.5.15-3.fc38               @fedora     97 k
 libXpresent-devel        x86_64   1.0.0-18.fc38               @fedora    6.5 k
 libXrandr-devel          i686     1.5.2-10.fc38               @fedora     22 k
 libXrandr-devel          x86_64   1.5.2-10.fc38               @fedora     22 k
 libXrender-devel         i686     0.9.11-2.fc38               @fedora     50 k
 libXrender-devel         x86_64   0.9.11-2.fc38               @fedora     50 k
 libXtst-devel            x86_64   1.2.4-2.fc38                @fedora     12 k
 libXv-devel              i686     1.0.11-18.fc38              @fedora     41 k
 libXv-devel              x86_64   1.0.11-18.fc38              @fedora     41 k
 libXxf86vm-devel         i686     1.1.5-2.fc38                @fedora     12 k
 libXxf86vm-devel         x86_64   1.1.5-2.fc38                @fedora     12 k
 libepoxy-devel           x86_64   1.5.10-3.fc38               @fedora    1.6 M
 libglvnd-devel           i686     1:1.6.0-2.fc38              @fedora    2.1 M
 libglvnd-devel           x86_64   1:1.6.0-2.fc38              @fedora    2.1 M
 libvdpau-devel           x86_64   1.5-3.fc38                  @fedora    208 k
 libxcb-devel             x86_64   1.13.1-11.fc38              @fedora    2.6 M
 mesa-libEGL-devel        i686     23.0.2-2.fc38               @updates    20 k
 mesa-libEGL-devel        x86_64   23.0.2-2.fc38               @updates    20 k
 mesa-libGL-devel         i686     23.0.2-2.fc38               @updates    79 k
 mesa-libGL-devel         x86_64   23.0.2-2.fc38               @updates    79 k
 mesa-libGLU-devel        i686     9.0.1-8.fc38                @fedora     20 k
 mesa-libGLU-devel        x86_64   9.0.1-8.fc38                @fedora     20 k

Not a single application depending on X11 gets removed. I knew hateful Linux fans are full of BS, I did not expect bystanders who are seemingly unbiased and don't have strong opinions, have the same fatal and horrible lapses in logic and knowledge.

Adios. You're now on my BL, I won't see any notifications coming from you.

[ultimA]

Let me quote you because you just cannot stop making things up:

"Of course, you might not care about that. but I hate it when I have a headless system, I install some library, and suddenly I seem to need the the whole X-server installed with most of its packages, even if not running."

This is a lie. Not a single application which depends on libX11 requires you to install the Xorg server, OK, amigo? You made that up. If your distro forces you to install Xorg just because you want to install libX11 take it to your distro. Xorg is not a requirement for applications using libX11, it never has been. So, that's lie number one from you.

The X-server consists of more than just its executable. It has countless libraries and modules, some are data, some are code. These are the stuff that external apps and libs rely on. It is very often the case you install something and it tries to pull it all those megabytes and dozens of packages from X11. Yes it won't pull in the executable itself. Doesn't change the truth or validity of what I said.

Let me quote you you again:

"randomly jumping at people. Between having an aggressive tone, falsifying what others wrote and calling others names,"

Show me a single instance of me jumping on people or calling names, I dare you.

You dare? LOL, too easy. Your first reaction to my first post was already calling me a liar and said I'm a disgrace. And you did that even though I didn't criticize you. I didn't even criticize the X-server. All I did was explain friendly why me and some think it is good if Firefox can optionally be built without X11-support now.

As for others:
It happened multiple times too. You referred to others and to what they were saying as 'despicable, atrocious, shameful' (#77), ''pathetic' (#89), 'hateful' (#91), started swearing multiple times, and man, that was only in the last three pages. There, enough evidence?

And before you start frantically checking my comments mind the comments I replied to, the comments full of hatred and filth towards the work of other people, OK, amigo?

I did read the comments you were replying to. None of them came even close to justifying your tone and words.

Maybe you need to start using better arguments before throwing mindless crap like "headless system and then I suddenly want graphics applications installed and then comes Xorg".

Again, a falsification. You're quoting me on a sentence I never said. You made that up entirely yourself. Can't you just accept that some people work on multiple computers? I have my PC and laptop where I'm using a GUI, but I also take care of multiple headless systems too. No, the systems where I use a GUI are not the ones that run headless. Congrats to you for hopefully realizing it now.

Even if God forbids you use a distro which forces you to install Xorg, there's again a surprise for you, you may never actually run Xorg.

Yeah, I know, I already told you (and others too) first that there are reasons not to want it "even if not running" (that is an actual quote from me). I explicitly pointed it out in my first post. "Thanks" for disregarding that and for trying to sell me my own info.

Please stop this. Just move on. Anyway, this has gotten really off-topic and out of hand, so... Peace out.

[avis]

You're deliberately trying to falsify things I said. I only said (and explicitly) that this change in Firefox is merely one step to allow for this, obviously hinting that today this is not yet something practical.


Again, a deliberate falsification. After talking about the headless stuff (which was just to exemplify how annoying it is when a single software pulls in something complicated unnecessarily), I wrote "The situation with Wayland and X is the same. If my goal is to have a graphical desktop based on Wayland...". If this doesn't make it clear to you that I'm not talking about a headless setup anymore and that was only a comparison earlier, then you need to take some reading exercises.


You seriously need to chill down, man. You are being extremely hostile, randomly jumping at people. Between having an aggressive tone, falsifying what others wrote and calling others names, I'm not sure you have the moral high-ground to call other people a 'disgrace.'

Let me quote you because you just cannot stop making things up:

"Of course, you might not care about that. but I hate it when I have a headless system, I install some library, and suddenly I seem to need the the whole X-server installed with most of its packages, even if not running."

This is a lie. Not a single application which depends on libX11 requires you to install the Xorg server, OK, amigo? You made that up. If your distro forces you to install Xorg just because you want to install libX11 take it to your distro. Xorg is not a requirement for applications using libX11, it never has been. So, that's lie number one from you.

Let me quote you you again:

"randomly jumping at people. Between having an aggressive tone, falsifying what others wrote and calling others names,"

Show me a single instance of me jumping on people or calling names, I dare you.

And before you start frantically checking my comments mind the comments I replied to, the comments full of hatred and filth towards the work of other people, OK, amigo?

Maybe you need to start using better arguments before throwing mindless crap like "headless system and then I suddenly want graphics applications installed and then comes Xorg".

Even if God forbids you use a distro which forces you to install Xorg, there's again a surprise for you, you may never actually run Xorg. It's 100% optional. In most distros X.org is started as part of DM (display manager) such as GDM, LXDM, SDM, etc, and it's a totally optional service, be it systemd or whatever non-systemd Linux OS you're using.

Maybe start following the conversation from the very beginning before joining in at the very end and throwing all sorts of baseless accusations at me. Unfortunately for me the original message where Xorg was called dog shit is now deleted or I cannot find it. This "dog shit" is used by me and over ~80% of Linux users and pretty much by 100% of professional Linux users who need professional applications.

And let me quote myself again: I do not understand haters here who want to destroy something which works for people. Wayland does not work for me and countless other people. It doesn't work in any shape or form. Firefox depending on libX11 does not make your system fatter, neither it requires you to have Xorg installed.

[ultimA]

I get it, you also don't have Xwayland installed and you've wilfully bereft yourself of all the X11 software just because you wanna save ~50MB of disk space.

No Steam or professional Linux software for you either.

You're deliberately trying to falsify things I said. I only said (and explicitly) that this change in Firefox is merely one step to allow for this, obviously hinting that today this is not yet something practical.

And then you say headless system and graphics software for Wayland. Maybe you could get it right next time and stop lying and making stuff up.

Again, a deliberate falsification. After talking about the headless stuff (which was just to exemplify how annoying it is when a single software pulls in something complicated unnecessarily), I wrote "The situation with Wayland and X is the same. If my goal is to have a graphical desktop based on Wayland...". If this doesn't make it clear to you that I'm not talking about a headless setup anymore and that was only a comparison earlier, then you need to take some reading exercises.

What a disgrace.

You seriously need to chill down, man. You are being extremely hostile, randomly jumping at people. Between having an aggressive tone, falsifying what others wrote and calling others names, I'm not sure you have the moral high-ground to call other people a 'disgrace.'

[archkde]

We already have X11R7 (it arrived around the time X.org finally gained support for autoconfiguration) so I think X11.8 would be more correct.

Of course you are correct. That stupid off-by-one just tells that I don't remember things properly any more, because I use Wayland for almost everything now.

[-MacNuke-]

You've changed your testimony three times in this thread

Did I? Where?

Lastly you're not using ~95% of functions of the applications and libraries you have installed on your system. For some reasons you don't go screaming around "Strip this fucking unmaintained crap from my system!!" And yeah, lots of that code is barely if maintained at all.

I am not screaming anywhere.

As a person you're dead to me. Please do not reply to my messages.

And I don't even know who you are and I could not care less what you think about me... but sorry, I wont stop replying to you. You have to block / ignore me if you can't cope with other opinions. Build your own Wayland-hating bubble. It's not my responsibility.

[avis]

Nah... this is not the reason. I just do not want unmaintained crap on my system.

You've changed your testimony three times in this thread and you've never once apologized to Xorg developers who you insulted in the worst manner possible and some of them wrote Wayland for you.

Lastly you're not using ~95% of functions of the applications and libraries you have installed on your system. For some reasons you don't go screaming around "Strip this fucking unmaintained crap from my system!!" And yeah, lots of that code is barely if maintained at all.

As a person you're dead to me. Please do not reply to my messages.

[SilverBird775]

There will never be a compromise. You see, the supporters of the old cruft are genuinely afraid that some drastic change will broke their system. Rightfully so! They invested so much time tinkering just the right settings, cherry picking applications, to finally have the solutions they can settle with.

Just as an example. After the recent distro enforced change to PipeWire I have stuttering, weirdness, quality drop. Tinker time again dammit! But I see a better code, better API, better tools, better potential. Please don't get me wrong, this API is not great too, compared to M$ API's. But should I defend the previous PulseAudio then? With a tuned up config I settled with and chosen applications it just works for me with nothing left to desire. See, that is a honey trap! No, I would not blame a distro maintainers a bit. Why? Because such a horrible code as PA is the evil on its own. I hate writing something for PA, such a bad API it is! If it is that bad then why should I pretend that all is fine and stick to it forever?

Linux environment is full of messed up and outdated code. If you think otherwise then you are just not truly honest to yourself. You fall in your mind trap where everything you built works for you and afraid that someone might blow your shaky card house.

Meanwhile Wayland is the main technology that extends the life of my dual core Athlon desktop to another decade, keeps it in a zone of relaxed comfort. Old fella was never designed to drive 4K multihead yet it do right now.
15 years old still fit like a champ. Thank you, Linux!