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[-MacNuke-]

See the server part, no?

Sure. But I am talking about Xorg as a whole, not just one binary. That I am talking about the server app only is your narrative to try to prove me wrong.

[oiaohm]

Sure. But I am talking about Xorg as a whole, not just one binary. That I am talking about the server app only is your narrative to try to prove me wrong.

Avis was clear he was talking about server at first not Xorg as a whole. So in some ways you moved the goal post.

Now what you are talking about is a little openssh optional dependancy called xauth

https://packages.debian.org/trixie/xauth

Xauth is technically not xserver it a X11 client side application.. Recommend dependency are all optional dependencies. Yes debian and many other Linux distributions ask will install optional dependencies unless they are blacklisted..

Yes also people point to this issue are not being truthful. Any particular reason why somethings like openssh server would have a optional depencany on xauth start thinking for a moment ssh -X feature you can forward openssh server to openssh server.

Lets make out that xorg is hard to get rid of without understanding a thing. A x.org free install that I do for server stuff all the time you have to remember todo 1 think black list xauth. I know of no server package other that Xserver itself that has hard dependency on xauth.

Yes the problem here is exactly 1 binary executable and its library dependencies that results in fragments of xorg software installed when you might not be expecting it.

[ultimA]

Avis was clear he was talking about server at first not Xorg as a whole. So in some ways you moved the goal post.

Now what you are talking about is a little openssh optional dependancy called xauth

https://packages.debian.org/trixie/xauth

Xauth is technically not xserver it a X11 client side application.. Recommend dependency are all optional dependencies. Yes debian and many other Linux distributions ask will install optional dependencies unless they are blacklisted..

Yes also people point to this issue are not being truthful. Any particular reason why somethings like openssh server would have a optional depencany on xauth start thinking for a moment ssh -X feature you can forward openssh server to openssh server.

Lets make out that xorg is hard to get rid of without understanding a thing. A x.org free install that I do for server stuff all the time you have to remember todo 1 think black list xauth. I know of no server package other that Xserver itself that has hard dependency on xauth.

Yes the problem here is exactly 1 binary executable and its library dependencies that results in fragments of xorg software installed when you might not be expecting it.

To correct you a bit oiaohm though, I need to point out when you say it is only xauth for openssh-server, that is not 100% right. xauth is merely the direct dependency, but xauth itself of course further depends on a bunch of other X-related libraries (libx11, libxau6, libxext, ...). You need to consider the whole dependency chain, not just the directly deps. Many of these extra packages can accumulate as you install multiple packages that like openssh just want this or that.

For openssh, yes optional, made clear when I pointed out it can be avoided by --no-install-recommends. In fact, in many packages these kinds of dependencies are optional, nevertheless installed by default, and sometimes quite a lot of them can get pulled it. Again, this whole argument between me and avis started by me simply stating that me and many others prefer avoiding these when we don't have a need for X-related stuff otherwise (like, for example, when we want a headless setup). He starting fights over this and assuming we want to kill his favorite X11-project is crazy.

The only thing I might apologize for is using the wrong wording. I did mean Xorg- and X11-related packages, even where I said "X-xerver", and that was the wrong terminology. Though I must add, even though I used the wrong terminology, I did clearly and explicitly explain early on that what I mean are just related libraries and data-files, so this shouldn't have been a source of misunderstanding. I course, when people want to misunderstand you, they will (and of course, I mean avis here, not you oiaohm, I have no quarrel with you or anybody else).

[ultimA]

ultimA above continues to lie about dependencies but I just don't care anymore. OpenSSH does not pull the Xorg server, neither does qbittorrent. Lying in almost every post here. That's just laughable. Of course, a Linux "guru" will not post any proofs of his lies either. Who cares about facts here when you can just hate Xorg.

The only one lying here is you. I already explained in post no.105 that I mean X-related libs and data, not the server. openssh pulls in xauth (by default) which further pulls in 4 other x-related libs. qbittorrent automatically pulls in qt even though it could be run in a headless mode, and qt of course pulls ins a bunch of X-stuff. Now, you can keep claiming I'm lying but I've just linked all the official debian package listings, so... good luck trying to convince people.
And what if CUDA is proprietary? How does that change anything I've written about its dependencies and running without an X-server? Another instance where you're bringing up irrelevant stuff just so you can derail the topic (which btw you've already done, unfortunately).

Now, you've had your proof you wanted from me. Again.
It should be time for you to stop before you embarrass yourself further.

[oiaohm]

To correct you a bit oiaohm though, I need to point out when you say it is only xauth for openssh-server, that is not 100% right. xauth is merely the direct dependency, but xauth itself of course further depends on a bunch of other X-related libraries (libx11, libxau6, libxext, ...)

ultimA be real if you had blacklisted xauth before attempting to install openssh the 4 libraries from xorg are not going to be installed right. Does xauth being blacklisted prevent openssh-server from installing on all major distributions the answer is no it does not. Does blacklisting xauth reduce openssh-server functionality the answer is yes it does because X11 forwarding no longer works but many cases this is exactly what you want anyhow.

ultimA there is a fun little command for all apt based distributions.

https://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/focal/man8/apt-mark.8.html

apt-mark hold xauth

Do the above command without xauth installed on apt using distribution then install openssh-server normally and notice xauth and all it hangers on don't install. Yes you can hold not installed packages that equals do not install this package. No need to disable installing all recommend packages just disable the problem child.

The corner case you found is really simple to prevent if you know your distribution package blacklisting solution. It fairly straight forwards to install a Linux distribution without any X11 parts.

Fun part the debian installer you can drop to text based terminal and set apt-mark hold on packages before even the drive is formated resulting in the blacklisted package never gets installed. Of course people need to know how to blacklist and what they should be blacklisting to get their intended outcome.

ultima yes a lot of people jump to lets install without any recommend dependencies instead of asking the question what to need to blacklist to get the outcome correct. Asking the blacklist question gives my response because from the blacklist point of view you only have to worry about xauth and blacklist it getting the wanted outcome.

[oiaohm]

And what if CUDA is proprietary? How does that change anything I've written about its dependencies and running without an X-server? Another instance where you're bringing up irrelevant stuff just so you can derail the topic (which btw you've already done, unfortunately).

https://docs.nvidia.com/cuda/cuda-installation-guide-linux/index.html

The driver relies on an automatically generated xorg.conf file at /etc/X11/xorg.conf. If a custom-built xorg.conf file is present, this functionality will be disabled and the driver may not work. You can try removing the existing xorg.conf file, or adding the contents of /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/00-nvidia.conf to the xorg.conf file. The xorg.conf file will most likely need manual tweaking for systems with a non-trivial GPU configuration.

CUDA has a hard dependany on x.org server being there. If you blacklist X11 packages and attempt to install CUDA things don't work under Linux. So this is not irrelevant.

Remember a person can have setup blacklists on x11 packages and noticed everything working fine so not picked up that openssh-server has a recommend xauth dependany. CUDA is one of the few cases where its a hard dependany.

Yes even using CUDA in direct to hardware mode the thing still fails to install and work if x.org x11 server is missing.

openssh-server xauth issue is minor annoyance. CUDA X11 issue is a major headache that you are basically forced to live with xorg X11 server yes you cannot use the BSD x11 server fork either.

Hopefully with Nvidia coming around to supporting wayland some point in the future there will be CUDA free of xorg X11 server as a install option.

[ultimA]

ultimA be real if you had blacklisted xauth before attempting to install openssh the 4 libraries from xorg are not going to be installed right. Does xauth being blacklisted prevent openssh-server from installing on all major distributions the answer is no it does not. Does blacklisting xauth reduce openssh-server functionality the answer is yes it does because X11 forwarding no longer works but many cases this is exactly what you want anyhow.

ultimA there is a fun little command for all apt based distributions.

https://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/focal/man8/apt-mark.8.html

apt-mark hold xauth

Do the above command without xauth installed on apt using distribution then install openssh-server normally and notice xauth and all it hangers on don't install. Yes you can hold not installed packages that equals do not install this package. No need to disable installing all recommend packages just disable the problem child.

The corner case you found is really simple to prevent if you know your distribution package blacklisting solution. It fairly straight forwards to install a Linux distribution without any X11 parts.

Fun part the debian installer you can drop to text based terminal and set apt-mark hold on packages before even the drive is formated resulting in the blacklisted package never gets installed. Of course people need to know how to blacklist and what they should be blacklisting to get their intended outcome.

ultima yes a lot of people jump to lets install without any recommend dependencies instead of asking the question what to need to blacklist to get the outcome correct. Asking the blacklist question gives my response because from the blacklist point of view you only have to worry about xauth and blacklist it getting the wanted outcome.

You're absolutely right. Blacklisting xauth is probably better than generally disabling all recommended packages for an install. My point though was not to recommend what the best way is to install openssh-server without any x-related libs, the point was to demonstrate that without you doing something, those libs will get installed, even though running completely without X is a very wide and common use-case. Also, openssh-server was just an example, and is by far not the only package affected by this issue. The problem becomes harder to handle with packages where x-related libs are mandatory deps by the package manager (like with qbittorrent from the other exmaples I provided earlier).

[ultimA]

https://docs.nvidia.com/cuda/cuda-installation-guide-linux/index.html

CUDA has a hard dependany on x.org server being there. If you blacklist X11 packages and attempt to install CUDA things don't work under Linux. So this is not irrelevant.

Remember a person can have setup blacklists on x11 packages and noticed everything working fine so not picked up that openssh-server has a recommend xauth dependany. CUDA is one of the few cases where its a hard dependany.

Yes even using CUDA in direct to hardware mode the thing still fails to install and work if x.org x11 server is missing.

openssh-server xauth issue is minor annoyance. CUDA X11 issue is a major headache that you are basically forced to live with xorg X11 server yes you cannot use the BSD x11 server fork either.

Hopefully with Nvidia coming around to supporting wayland some point in the future there will be CUDA free of xorg X11 server as a install option.

I think we are talking about the same thing here. I was the one who brought CUDA originally into the discussion, as an example of it having lots of X-stuff as mandatory dependencies, which makes you have to install X, even though you might be running a headless compute server. What I referred to as "irrelevant" was avis's argument of it being proprietary. It is irrelevant whether it is open-source or proprietary, this forced dependency is still an issue for a very common use-case.

Both CUDA and qbittorrent were meant as examples for packages that have hard deps on X-related libs even though they are actually very useful even without using an X-server and is actually quite common to do so.

[oiaohm]

Both CUDA and qbittorrent were meant as examples for packages that have hard deps on X-related libs even though they are actually very useful even without using an X-server and is actually quite common to do so.

What you wrote is not 100 percent correct. Qbittorrent can be installed without x libs. qbittorrent upstream stopped having hard depends on X-related libs after wayland support was added. Qbittorrent has had optional depends on X related libs for over a year now.
https://github.com/qbittorrent/qBitt...cussions/17234 Yes user 2022 noted this with qbittorrent.
https://packages.debian.org/trixie/qt6-wayland yes the qt6-wayland bit.
Of course there are distributions where qt base/core bits are packaged with the X11 part but you would call this a distribution packaging issue not totally hard dependency..

https://packages.debian.org/trixie/libqt6gui6

Yes debian is one of the ones where they have packages the x11 QPA bit into the core libqt6gui6 package so making X11 parts install because you install something Qt GUI.

So the qbittorrent problem is not qbittorrent or upstream qt having a hard deps on X-related libs but distributions building qt libraries in a configuration where they have a hard dependency on x11 libraries.. Upstream qt is designed that X11, Wayland and many other backends can be provided a QPA bits that are used on demand.

This is more of a distribution packaging issue and they have not caught up with people wanting no X11 yet. This is kind of the same problem that people have when they say systemd is heavy. Lot of cases systemd is heavy because distributions have not packaged it so users can simply remove the optional parts they are not using see same problem here with qt. Distribution packaging problem is the qbittorrent one so with enough determination you can work around this dependency problem and possible open issues with distributions and get them to change this.

CUDA is a hard discrepancy as the thing will not install when you have x.org X11 blacklisted but I will not be surprised as Nvidia gets there KMS/DMABUF... stuff sorted out that some point in future x.org X11 could come optional here as well.

ultimA packages with mandatory deps on x.org X11 server stuff is getting rarer.

Yes we are seeing more "Wayland or X11 applications" in their code base yes Qbittorrent is now one of those "Wayland or X11" where you can have the X11 backed alone or Wayland backend alone or both X11 and Wayland backends. But there are libraries like the libqt6gui6 on debian where the distributions are not at this stage packaging them right right for a wayland only install or a headless install. That right using the QPA bits of qt you can in fact install Qbittorrent fully headless with no x11 or Wayland libraries yes fun having qt libraries from source on many distributions to pull this off..

At the moment to see if application really need X11 or not you have to go and blacklist the X11 stuff then attempt to install it. If it installs and works then it does not need x11 and its just optional. Some you will see that its X11 or Wayland. Some have added a non graphical install mode where you can disable both X11 and Wayland and they now install server instances.

[ultimA]

What you wrote is not 100 percent correct. Qbittorrent can be installed without x libs. qbittorrent upstream stopped having hard depends on X-related libs after wayland support was added. Qbittorrent has had optional depends on X related libs for over a year now.
https://github.com/qbittorrent/qBitt...cussions/17234 Yes user 2022 noted this with qbittorrent.
https://packages.debian.org/trixie/qt6-wayland yes the qt6-wayland bit.
Of course there are distributions where qt base/core bits are packaged with the X11 part but you would call this a distribution packaging issue not totally hard dependency..

This doesn't contradict what I was saying. In post 107 I actually wrote "it is often a problem of how apps get packaged by maintainers and not because the app actually requires X11". That I linked debian package descriptions here shows that in the case of qbittorrent I was speaking of the packaging aspect. Unless you build your own package, the package dependencies of the distribution are what an end-user experiences, not what upstream would support.

It seems like our misunderstanding between you and me comes down to what you and me understood under a "hard dependency". You seem to mean it as "upstream requires it", whereas I mean "a non-optional dependency when the user installs the package", irrespective if it is required by upstream or the distribution.