GNOME Is Making It Easier To Track Running Background Apps

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  • Shagga, Son of Dolf
    replied
    While I like what Gnome is doing with its applications - keep them simple and straightforward while having them more or less do what they need to do - I cannot stand the desktop itself.

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  • Hi-Angel
    replied
    Originally posted by mirmirmir View Post

    i'm writing this on windows. even microsoft agrees shift+alt was a bad idea, and they also change it to super+space. in conclusion, you are complaining over nothing.
    Oh, they did? Interesting, that's news to me.

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  • mirmirmir
    replied
    Originally posted by Hi-Angel View Post

    In my country there's a saying "don't shoot sparrows with a cannon". Why would you change system-wide settings just because there is one app out of many dozens that gives you the problem, and you can just change settings inside it?



    Yes, I'm saying it would be less intuitive, because almost no user would even remember a conflict with Alt+Shift combination if you ask them. It is exceedingly rare to have such conflicts, there's a whole ecosystem of Alt+Shift-compatible apps due to such hotkey being very popular. The Logo+Space being the default solves a theoretical problem, but leads an actual one of such hotkey not being common nor guessable.
    i'm writing this on windows. even microsoft agrees shift+alt was a bad idea, and they also change it to super+space. in conclusion, you are complaining over nothing.

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  • Hi-Angel
    replied
    Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
    How is it more rational to change the default hotkey to one that you know will have conflicts with apps and then change per app hotkeys in all effect software? You could just change nothing, adapt to using the default hotkey, and never have to worry about conflicts.
    In my country there's a saying "don't shoot sparrows with a cannon". Why would you change system-wide settings just because there is one app out of many dozens that gives you the problem, and you can just change settings inside it?

    Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying but are you saying the combination without conflicts is the less intuitive one and that Gnome should default to the one with conflicts? That would be bad design on their part. Just because someone is used to something doesn't make it less intuitive than something else.
    Yes, I'm saying it would be less intuitive, because almost no user would even remember a conflict with Alt+Shift combination if you ask them. It is exceedingly rare to have such conflicts, there's a whole ecosystem of Alt+Shift-compatible apps due to such hotkey being very popular. The Logo+Space being the default solves a theoretical problem, but leads an actual one of such hotkey not being common nor guessable.

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  • Hi-Angel
    replied
    Pfff, alright, hold your horses guys, it was nice while it lasted, but turns out this feature only works with flatpaks.

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  • Myownfriend
    replied
    Originally posted by Hi-Angel View Post
    If some player is annoyed to the point they decide to change their hotkeys — they will not necessarily go change the system-wide keyboard switching shortcut. Instead they might want to change hotkeys in the game. Because that's more rational: there's just one rare app that annoys you, so you change the in-app settings instead of system-wide ones.
    How is it more rational to change the default hotkey to one that you know will have conflicts with apps and then change per app hotkeys in all effect software? You could just change nothing, adapt to using the default hotkey, and never have to worry about conflicts.

    Originally posted by Hi-Angel View Post
    So I see no reason for the unintuitive hotkey to be the opt-out instead of opt-in.
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying but are you saying the combination without conflicts is the less intuitive one and that Gnome should default to the one with conflicts? That would be bad design on their part. Just because someone is used to something doesn't make it less intuitive than something else.

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  • Hi-Angel
    replied
    Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
    Anyone coming straight from Windows would need to adapt to other things though. And again, if an application uses Alt+Shift in a way that makes it annoying to use then they'd have to find an alternative way to switch keyboard layouts anyway and the quickest would be to just change the shortcut again.
    For the record, I only ever seen two types of such applications: Emacs and games. Emacsy auditory I'm sure can figure out settings best suitable. Games auditory though is more diverse in their computer experience. But then again, even in games it isn't such a big problem. It just doesn't happen too often that you occasionally switch layout while playing.

    If some player is annoyed to the point they decide to change their hotkeys — they will not necessarily go change the system-wide keyboard switching shortcut. Instead they might want to change hotkeys in the game. Because that's more rational: there's just one rare app that annoys you, so you change the in-app settings instead of system-wide ones.

    So I see no reason for the unintuitive hotkey to be the opt-out instead of opt-in.

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  • Myownfriend
    replied
    Originally posted by Hi-Angel View Post

    You are approaching it from the practical standpoint, which doesn't always work. Similarly, I could argue that tiling workflow (as in, tiling WMs) is a faster one, and so is the most practical to have by default. But I'm not gonna do that, because you need to account other nuances, such as how much a person would have to re-learn coming from other systems.

    People usually come from Windows, and the Alt+Shift has been by default there for ages. So when there's another hotkey for such a frequent activity, that applies mental pressure (upd: and also because the person has to switch between hotkey combinations at home and at work). And since the system is completely new to the person, there's a lot of such pressure already, so you will most likely get a negative perception. I want to avoid that, so I prefer to leave as much intuitively guessable as possible.
    Anyone coming straight from Windows would need to adapt to other things though. And again, if an application uses Alt+Shift in a way that makes it annoying to use then they'd have to find an alternative way to switch keyboard layouts anyway and the quickest would be to just change the shortcut again.

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  • Hi-Angel
    replied
    Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post

    What's the importance of it using Alt+Shift. I feel like using the host key for all of the shell's functionality is ideal since it's a key that you can be sure isn't used by any applications while there might be conflicts with Alt+Shift.
    You are approaching it from the practical standpoint, which doesn't always work. Similarly, I could argue that tiling workflow (as in, tiling WMs) is a faster one, and so is the most practical to have by default. But I'm not gonna do that, because you need to account other nuances, such as how much a person would have to re-learn coming from other systems.

    People usually come from Windows, and the Alt+Shift has been by default there for ages. So when there's another hotkey for such a frequent activity, that applies mental pressure (upd: and also because the person has to switch between hotkey combinations at home and at work). And since the system is completely new to the person, there's a lot of such pressure already, so you will most likely get a negative perception. I want to avoid that, so I prefer to leave as much intuitively guessable as possible.
    Last edited by Hi-Angel; 09 February 2023, 05:45 PM. Reason: updated

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  • Myownfriend
    replied
    Originally posted by Hi-Angel View Post
    They also AFAIK moved from the default "Alt-Shift" keyboard layout switching hotkey to "Logo + Space" — ain't very friendly for newcomers. On top of that they also made it very difficult to make "Alt+Shift" the default combination. I remember I was setting up a Fedora system for my ex-girlfriend, and I had to use terminal with gsettings to make Alt+Shift work, because making it through the usual means of GUI just did not work.
    What's the importance of it using Alt+Shift. I feel like using the host key for all of the shell's functionality is ideal since it's a key that you can be sure isn't used by any applications while there might be conflicts with Alt+Shift.

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