Originally posted by guglovich
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KDE Plasma 5.26 Beta Week Saw More Fixes To The Plasma Wayland Session
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Originally posted by rabcor View PostStarting to seem like 'fixing wayland' is the same as trying to bail out water from a boat that has a hole in it, no matter how much you bail out, you never stop sinking until someone fixes the hole. And it's like wayland, being the boat in the metaphor, was designed to be a boat with a hole in it. Came like that from the manufacturer, and the manufacturer did absolutely everything within their power to make sure the hole cannot be plugged.
I'm curious why devs are honestly even dealing with this shit.
Replacing X with something better is a very worthwhile effort, and sure we do need that, problem is, wayland is not better than X, that's the real kicker.
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Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post
I've been wondering about arcan for a while. seems like it has compatibility with both wayland apps and x11 apps. it might be worth giving a try soon.
The project has rather poor visibility, i'm thinking this is deliberate so the devs can work on it at their own pace calmly without being rushed by hordes of people woho wanna see it complete lol.
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Originally posted by ⲣⲂaggins View PostKWin currently has a bug where it sometimes creates ghost windows that can't be closed. If it does that on X11, you can just restart the compositor to get rid of them. On Wayland, if you restart the compositor, all your apps go down with it. And that's before we even get to crashes, but the behaviour is the same: X11 is crash-robust but Wayland is not. So no, not a viable replacement just yet. David Edmunsson's robustness work (which fixes this) was done exactly a year ago. Is there something holding it up?
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Originally posted by aufkrawall View PostWhatever you tested, it was a flawed approach.
EDIT: and this is only with "traditional Vsync" not "mailbox" or "triple buffer" vsync, which beats XLast edited by Quackdoc; 18 September 2022, 06:34 PM.
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Originally posted by rabcor View Post
Yeah, Arcan looks like it might be a great solution to this problem, but it's just not ready yet.
The project has rather poor visibility, i'm thinking this is deliberate so the devs can work on it at their own pace calmly without being rushed by hordes of people woho wanna see it complete lol.
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Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post
this would be very understandable, the thing im worried about is the damage linux will suffer by going all in on wayland. the lack of freedom with wayland has already put me off of it, and if I didn't actually need wayland, I know I personally wouldn't be using it
lack of freedom?
Care provide some insight?
I suffer no damage nor lack of freedom -- I use wayland and KDE & Gnome (on 2 different systems) -- and no input lag
(all on opensource drivers thanks to AMD and Mesa + Kernel folks)
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Originally posted by Grinness View Post
Damage?
lack of freedom?
Care provide some insight?
I suffer no damage nor lack of freedom -- I use wayland and KDE & Gnome (on 2 different systems) -- and no input lag
(all on opensource drivers thanks to AMD and Mesa + Kernel folks)
I'll use the popular app MPV is an example. do you always on top feature is still broken on Wayland because there's no viable alternative aside from WLroots' wlr-layers protocol, something KDE and wlroots support but not gnome. but even without that one of the devs had publicly stated the reluctance to an add unofficial Wayland features.
this is not the only example. but it is the One most people can test.
as well as easy to blame gnome saying that "everyone should agree on shared protocols" there's an easy rebuttal for that. they did it's called Wayland.
screenshot apps are a shit show. I've yet to find a good one that implements the XDG standard, virtual keyboards are also an issue, some virtual keyboard simply don't work on some compositors.
The limitations that Wayland has imposed. have directly caused a large amount of fragmentation. this is fragmentation that I, as someone who used to run a family computer store. could never accept on a product I would sell to a customer.
so far Wayland has done nothing but hurt the prospects of a good computer system for normal people.
there are deliberate design decisions of Wayland that strip freedoms away from users and developers. for instance apps are no longer allowed to know where they or other apps are located. And it is solely up to the compositor to do window placement.
well the argument can be had but this is bad security, I would argue it should be my choice whether or not this should be something that's allowed on my system.
edit: Don't get me wrong, I bear no illusions towards x11. I realize it has to go. but I don't see Wayland as a step forward, so far it's been a large step back in my opinion
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Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post
Wayland has made deliberate design decisions that has caused fragmentation in the ecosystem.
I'll use the popular app MPV is an example. do you always on top feature is still broken on Wayland because there's no viable alternative aside from WLroots' wlr-layers protocol, something KDE and wlroots support but not gnome. but even without that one of the devs had publicly stated the reluctance to an add unofficial Wayland features.
this is not the only example. but it is the One most people can test.
as well as easy to blame gnome saying that "everyone should agree on shared protocols" there's an easy rebuttal for that. they did it's called Wayland.
screenshot apps are a shit show. I've yet to find a good one that implements the XDG standard, virtual keyboards are also an issue, some virtual keyboard simply don't work on some compositors.
The limitations that Wayland has imposed. have directly caused a large amount of fragmentation. this is fragmentation that I, as someone who used to run a family computer store. could never accept on a product I would sell to a customer.
so far Wayland has done nothing but hurt the prospects of a good computer system for normal people.
there are deliberate design decisions of Wayland that strip freedoms away from users and developers. for instance apps are no longer allowed to know where they or other apps are located. And it is solely up to the compositor to do window placement.
well the argument can be had but this is bad security, I would argue it should be my choice whether or not this should be something that's allowed on my system.
edit: Don't get me wrong, I bear no illusions towards x11. I realize it has to go. but I don't see Wayland as a step forward, so far it's been a large step back in my opinion
Under KDE 5.25.5 + Wyaland I have enabled 'Show on all Desktops' and 'Keep Above Others' (right click on app bar, select 'More Actions" and tick the option)
All is working as espected: video is on all desktops and above all other apps -- I am actually writing this while I have MVP playing a movie.
There is no step back (nor lack of freedom or .... ) -- only the time required for a 'Bazar model' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ca...and_the_Bazaar) to adopt and implement the standard (aka wayland protocol)
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