KDE Plasma 5.26 Beta Week Saw More Fixes To The Plasma Wayland Session

[Vistaus]

Linux archivers already have problems with the UX, but KDE decided that they could make it even worse.

Try Arqiver: https://github.com/tsujan/Arqiver
It has a simple yet effective UX.

(Btw, created by the same developer as Kvantum, FeatherPad, etc.).

[rabcor]

It's vastly superior to X, especially in how it handles multiple monitors and security. I can go into detail on everything that Wayland does better than X, but I would rather not.

To sum it up:

X is a dinosaur, and it wasn't made for modern workflows, such as mixed refresh rate setups, HiDPI, and modern (from our POV) security. It requires tons of patches to even stand.
I can put a non-root executable on anybodys system, and capture their X keypresses, screen, and probably more. Now I can steal your Netflix account! Wayland prevents that by design. (Xwayland is still affected, since it's an X server, but I can't capture native Wayland windows.)

And who knows what issues X has better than the X devs themselves? Wayland is basically the "x12" that people that hate Wayland have been calling for. Wayland was made by the X devs *because* of the issues that X has.

Wayland is also more efficient than X, *even with* its forced compositing. This makes it perfect for mobile devices, such as the Steam Deck.

If devs don't deal with Wayland now in a positive way, it's going to be the same issue that it's been for years now. There's nobody adopting Wayland, so nobody builds for it. This isn't like how PipeWire tells devs to not code directly for it if they don't need to. X itself has design issues that Wayland doesn't, and it's coming back and biting us in the behind.

Ur not wrong i suppose, Wayland does some things better than X, and you're right too that security and multi monitor setups are 2 of those things, and yeah by extension things like hidpi work better on wayland....

The problem is that wayland has critical missing features that the devs have refused to implement for over a decade, and horrible design decision they refuse to go back on.

If your nr. 1 priority is security it's fine

If you're a consumer, a general purpose end user or if you're a gamer, wayland is borked by design, it's a piece of hot garbage. Does the steam deck even use wayland? I'm fairly certain it doesn't use it, it can't use it, because wayland has vsync forced on and in some games you do not want vsync to be on.

When wayland first came they said wayland by design was tear free, and this would be awesome... except it wasn't, they just forced vsync on universally, you could already do that on X, you could already have tear free X, it was nothing new.

You can't stream your monitor on wayland which is critical for many users.

There's no proper software for creating macros (there's some but it's often convoluted, barely known and has dropped or painfully slow development. Not being able to record keypresses from other processes is pretty good security wise, not being able to send them is an awful end user design.

You know what I'm not really properly qualified I suppose to argue or explain most of this stuff, but someone is...

Here read up, read up about all the ways in which Wayland is completely fucked, mostly thanks to the wayland devs who refuse to fix it.

Hell... I wonder if they even do work on it more than 5 minutes per week at the rate of their devleopment with bugs left unresolved for decades at a time, the thing is fucking vaporware. If they spent half as much time developing it as they have spent trying to convince everyone they need it, then yeah it'd probably be the 'x12' we need, but it's not, it's basically just fit for kiosks and smartphones and servers, nothing else. For the desktop it is bloody awful and nobody should really be using it.

It's a good idea to fix a real problem, but with such horrible execution that it creates a lot of bigger problems than the problem it originally tried to solve.

Yes, X has design issues that wayland doesn't, problem is, wayland just introduces bigger design issues that make it a non-viable replacement for X.

[guglovich]

Try Arqiver: https://github.com/tsujan/Arqiver
It has a simple yet effective UX.

(Btw, created by the same developer as Kvantum, FeatherPad, etc.).

Thank you, I've seen it. I have it along with other archivers. It's simple and straightforward. But not enough features yet.

[middy]

Wayland will never be ready for gamers until they fix the latency problem with fast paced games. I didn't realize how superior X11 was with game latency until I spent two years on gnome pure Wayland and trying x11 again by moving to kde. X11 is so much smoother when fps is below 100 in games like battlefield v and even world of warcraft in raids when fps drops below 60.

[gfunk]

Plasma on X11 now ensures KDE apps correctly remember their window size and positions on multi-screen arrangements.

hope this can be added for Wayland too as app window sizes are all over the place, mainly firefox not sure if its up to mozilla to fix

[Quackdoc]

Starting to seem like 'fixing wayland' is the same as trying to bail out water from a boat that has a hole in it, no matter how much you bail out, you never stop sinking until someone fixes the hole. And it's like wayland, being the boat in the metaphor, was designed to be a boat with a hole in it. Came like that from the manufacturer, and the manufacturer did absolutely everything within their power to make sure the hole cannot be plugged.

I'm curious why devs are honestly even dealing with this shit.

Replacing X with something better is a very worthwhile effort, and sure we do need that, problem is, wayland is not better than X, that's the real kicker.

I've been wondering about arcan for a while. seems like it has compatibility with both wayland apps and x11 apps. it might be worth giving a try soon.

[aufkrawall]

Wayland will never be ready for gamers until they fix the latency problem with fast paced games. I didn't realize how superior X11 was with game latency until I spent two years on gnome pure Wayland and trying x11 again by moving to kde. X11 is so much smoother when fps is below 100 in games like battlefield v and even world of warcraft in raids when fps drops below 60.

Yes, it's kind of absurd. I think still you even have some ms more input lag with vsynced Wayland vs. vsynced Xorg (no compositor), or dumb additional stutter with high GPU load due to latency reduction features of the Wayland compositors. Hopefully you can escape all of this via VRR...

[Quackdoc]

Yes, it's kind of absurd. I think still you even have some ms more input lag with vsynced Wayland vs. vsynced Xorg (no compositor), or dumb additional stutter with high GPU load due to latency reduction features of the Wayland compositors. Hopefully you can escape all of this via VRR...

this isn't an issue in most compositors.

[ⲣⲂaggins]

KWin currently has a bug where it sometimes creates ghost windows that can't be closed. If it does that on X11, you can just restart the compositor to get rid of them. On Wayland, if you restart the compositor, all your apps go down with it. And that's before we even get to crashes, but the behaviour is the same: X11 is crash-robust but Wayland is not. So no, not a viable replacement just yet. David Edmunsson's robustness work (which fixes this) was done exactly a year ago. Is there something holding it up?

[aufkrawall]

this isn't an issue in most compositors.

Whatever you tested, it was a flawed approach.