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KDE Plasma 5.26 Beta Week Saw More Fixes To The Plasma Wayland Session

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  • rabcor
    replied
    Originally posted by OroWith2Os View Post

    It's vastly superior to X, especially in how it handles multiple monitors and security. I can go into detail on everything that Wayland does better than X, but I would rather not.

    To sum it up:

    X is a dinosaur, and it wasn't made for modern workflows, such as mixed refresh rate setups, HiDPI, and modern (from our POV) security. It requires tons of patches to even stand.
    I can put a non-root executable on anybodys system, and capture their X keypresses, screen, and probably more. Now I can steal your Netflix account! Wayland prevents that by design. (Xwayland is still affected, since it's an X server, but I can't capture native Wayland windows.)

    And who knows what issues X has better than the X devs themselves? Wayland is basically the "x12" that people that hate Wayland have been calling for. Wayland was made by the X devs *because* of the issues that X has.

    Wayland is also more efficient than X, *even with* its forced compositing. This makes it perfect for mobile devices, such as the Steam Deck.

    If devs don't deal with Wayland now in a positive way, it's going to be the same issue that it's been for years now. There's nobody adopting Wayland, so nobody builds for it. This isn't like how PipeWire tells devs to not code directly for it if they don't need to. X itself has design issues that Wayland doesn't, and it's coming back and biting us in the behind.
    Ur not wrong i suppose, Wayland does some things better than X, and you're right too that security and multi monitor setups are 2 of those things, and yeah by extension things like hidpi work better on wayland....

    The problem is that wayland has critical missing features that the devs have refused to implement for over a decade, and horrible design decision they refuse to go back on.

    If your nr. 1 priority is security it's fine

    If you're a consumer, a general purpose end user or if you're a gamer, wayland is borked by design, it's a piece of hot garbage. Does the steam deck even use wayland? I'm fairly certain it doesn't use it, it can't use it, because wayland has vsync forced on and in some games you do not want vsync to be on.

    When wayland first came they said wayland by design was tear free, and this would be awesome... except it wasn't, they just forced vsync on universally, you could already do that on X, you could already have tear free X, it was nothing new.

    You can't stream your monitor on wayland which is critical for many users.

    There's no proper software for creating macros (there's some but it's often convoluted, barely known and has dropped or painfully slow development. Not being able to record keypresses from other processes is pretty good security wise, not being able to send them is an awful end user design.

    You know what I'm not really properly qualified I suppose to argue or explain most of this stuff, but someone is...

    Here read up, read up about all the ways in which Wayland is completely fucked, mostly thanks to the wayland devs who refuse to fix it.

    Hell... I wonder if they even do work on it more than 5 minutes per week at the rate of their devleopment with bugs left unresolved for decades at a time, the thing is fucking vaporware. If they spent half as much time developing it as they have spent trying to convince everyone they need it, then yeah it'd probably be the 'x12' we need, but it's not, it's basically just fit for kiosks and smartphones and servers, nothing else. For the desktop it is bloody awful and nobody should really be using it.

    It's a good idea to fix a real problem, but with such horrible execution that it creates a lot of bigger problems than the problem it originally tried to solve.

    Yes, X has design issues that wayland doesn't, problem is, wayland just introduces bigger design issues that make it a non-viable replacement for X.
    Last edited by rabcor; 17 September 2022, 12:54 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vistaus
    replied
    Originally posted by guglovich View Post
    Linux archivers already have problems with the UX, but KDE decided that they could make it even worse.
    Try Arqiver: https://github.com/tsujan/Arqiver
    It has a simple yet effective UX.

    (Btw, created by the same developer as Kvantum, FeatherPad, etc.).

    Leave a comment:


  • mirmirmir
    replied
    Originally posted by rabcor View Post
    Starting to seem like 'fixing wayland' is the same as trying to bail out water from a boat that has a hole in it, no matter how much you bail out, you never stop sinking until someone fixes the hole. And it's like wayland, being the boat in the metaphor, was designed to be a boat with a hole in it. Came like that from the manufacturer, and the manufacturer did absolutely everything within their power to make sure the hole cannot be plugged.

    I'm curious why devs are honestly even dealing with this shit.

    Replacing X with something better is a very worthwhile effort, and sure we do need that, problem is, wayland is not better than X, that's the real kicker.
    Wayland is less that of a boat, more of a regulation for a boat. Don't blame government because your leaky boat keeps leaking while the crew changing one part at a time to follow the regulations, and also the boat master set it sails, even knowing all that. Because boat master knows that their customer is dumb, blame others because they can't admit stupid decision they made.

    Leave a comment:


  • MorrisS.
    replied
    Wayland is available by proprietary drivers on PLASMA?

    Leave a comment:


  • C8292
    replied
    Been using plasma 5.25 as daily driver on wayland and it was been awesome. very very very very ocasional plasma crash.

    amd graphics, which helps I think.

    Can't wait for 5.26 goodies!

    Leave a comment:


  • guglovich
    replied
    Linux archivers already have problems with the UX, but KDE decided that they could make it even worse.

    Leave a comment:


  • OroWith2Os
    replied
    I also seem to have made some grammar typos in my first message. I meant that X is pretty broken, security wise, and less efficient

    Leave a comment:


  • OroWith2Os
    replied
    Originally posted by rabcor View Post
    Starting to seem like 'fixing wayland' is the same as trying to bail out water from a boat that has a hole in it... continues
    It's vastly superior to X, especially in how it handles multiple monitors and security. I can go into detail on everything that Wayland does better than X, but I would rather not.

    To sum it up:

    X is a dinosaur, and it wasn't made for modern workflows, such as mixed refresh rate setups, HiDPI, and modern (from our POV) security. It requires tons of patches to even stand.
    I can put a non-root executable on anybodys system, and capture their X keypresses, screen, and probably more. Now I can steal your Netflix account! Wayland prevents that by design. (Xwayland is still affected, since it's an X server, but I can't capture native Wayland windows.)

    And who knows what issues X has better than the X devs themselves? Wayland is basically the "x12" that people that hate Wayland have been calling for. Wayland was made by the X devs *because* of the issues that X has.

    Wayland is also more efficient than X, *even with* its forced compositing. This makes it perfect for mobile devices, such as the Steam Deck.

    If devs don't deal with Wayland now in a positive way, it's going to be the same issue that it's been for years now. There's nobody adopting Wayland, so nobody builds for it. This isn't like how PipeWire tells devs to not code directly for it if they don't need to. X itself has design issues that Wayland doesn't, and it's coming back and biting us in the behind.

    Leave a comment:


  • rabcor
    replied
    Starting to seem like 'fixing wayland' is the same as trying to bail out water from a boat that has a hole in it, no matter how much you bail out, you never stop sinking until someone fixes the hole. And it's like wayland, being the boat in the metaphor, was designed to be a boat with a hole in it. Came like that from the manufacturer, and the manufacturer did absolutely everything within their power to make sure the hole cannot be plugged.

    I'm curious why devs are honestly even dealing with this shit.

    Replacing X with something better is a very worthwhile effort, and sure we do need that, problem is, wayland is not better than X, that's the real kicker.

    Leave a comment:


  • HD7950
    replied
    I've been using KDE Plasma 5.26 Beta on Archlinux during the last 24 hours and I still haven't found any bugs beyond a few lines not translated into my local language.

    Leave a comment:

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