KDE Plasma 5.26 Beta Week Saw More Fixes To The Plasma Wayland Session

[Grinness]

I just installed MPV (Archlinux official package)

Under KDE 5.25.5 + Wyaland I have enabled 'Show on all Desktops' and 'Keep Above Others' (right click on app bar, select 'More Actions" and tick the option)
All is working as espected: video is on all desktops and above all other apps -- I am actually writing this while I have MVP playing a movie.

There is no step back (nor lack of freedom or .... ) -- only the time required for a 'Bazar model' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ca...and_the_Bazaar) to adopt and implement the standard (aka wayland protocol)

... for the records, I just used 'Spectacle' to take a screenshot of MPV playing a video.
And surprise surprise, all working as espected -- I have screenshot containing the frame/picture of the video playing in MPV ...

[Quackdoc]

I just installed MPV (Archlinux official package)

Under KDE 5.25.5 + Wyaland I have enabled 'Show on all Desktops' and 'Keep Above Others' (right click on app bar, select 'More Actions" and tick the option)
All is working as espected: video is on all desktops and above all other apps -- I am actually writing this while I have MVP playing a movie.

There is no step back (nor lack of freedom or .... ) -- only the time required for a 'Bazar model' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ca...and_the_Bazaar) to adopt and implement the standard (aka wayland protocol)

I am talking about MPVs always ontop feature, not using the compositor specific features

[Grinness]

Wayland has made deliberate design decisions that has caused fragmentation in the ecosystem.

I'll use the popular app MPV is an example. do you always on top feature is still broken on Wayland because there's no viable alternative aside from WLroots' wlr-layers protocol, something KDE and wlroots support but not gnome. but even without that one of the devs had publicly stated the reluctance to an add unofficial Wayland features.

this is not the only example. but it is the One most people can test.

as well as easy to blame gnome saying that "everyone should agree on shared protocols" there's an easy rebuttal for that. they did it's called Wayland.

screenshot apps are a shit show. I've yet to find a good one that implements the XDG standard, virtual keyboards are also an issue, some virtual keyboard simply don't work on some compositors.

The limitations that Wayland has imposed. have directly caused a large amount of fragmentation. this is fragmentation that I, as someone who used to run a family computer store. could never accept on a product I would sell to a customer.

so far Wayland has done nothing but hurt the prospects of a good computer system for normal people.

there are deliberate design decisions of Wayland that strip freedoms away from users and developers. for instance apps are no longer allowed to know where they or other apps are located. And it is solely up to the compositor to do window placement.

well the argument can be had but this is bad security, I would argue it should be my choice whether or not this should be something that's allowed on my system.

edit: Don't get me wrong, I bear no illusions towards x11. I realize it has to go. but I don't see Wayland as a step forward, so far it's been a large step back in my opinion

I just installed MPV (Archlinux official package)

Under KDE 5.25.5 + Wyaland I have enabled 'Show on all Desktops' and 'Keep Above Others' (right click on app bar, select 'More Actions" and tick the option)
All is working as espected: video is on all desktops and above all other apps -- I am actually writing this while I have MVP playing a movie.

There is no step back (nor lack of freedom or .... ) -- only the time required for a 'Bazar model' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ca...and_the_Bazaar) to adopt and implement the standard (aka wayland protocol)

[Quackdoc]

Damage?
lack of freedom?

Care provide some insight?

I suffer no damage nor lack of freedom -- I use wayland and KDE & Gnome (on 2 different systems) -- and no input lag
(all on opensource drivers thanks to AMD and Mesa + Kernel folks)

Wayland has made deliberate design decisions that has caused fragmentation in the ecosystem.

I'll use the popular app MPV is an example. do you always on top feature is still broken on Wayland because there's no viable alternative aside from WLroots' wlr-layers protocol, something KDE and wlroots support but not gnome. but even without that one of the devs had publicly stated the reluctance to an add unofficial Wayland features.

this is not the only example. but it is the One most people can test.

as well as easy to blame gnome saying that "everyone should agree on shared protocols" there's an easy rebuttal for that. they did it's called Wayland.

screenshot apps are a shit show. I've yet to find a good one that implements the XDG standard, virtual keyboards are also an issue, some virtual keyboard simply don't work on some compositors.

The limitations that Wayland has imposed. have directly caused a large amount of fragmentation. this is fragmentation that I, as someone who used to run a family computer store. could never accept on a product I would sell to a customer.

so far Wayland has done nothing but hurt the prospects of a good computer system for normal people.

there are deliberate design decisions of Wayland that strip freedoms away from users and developers. for instance apps are no longer allowed to know where they or other apps are located. And it is solely up to the compositor to do window placement.

well the argument can be had but this is bad security, I would argue it should be my choice whether or not this should be something that's allowed on my system.

edit: Don't get me wrong, I bear no illusions towards x11. I realize it has to go. but I don't see Wayland as a step forward, so far it's been a large step back in my opinion

[Grinness]

this would be very understandable, the thing im worried about is the damage linux will suffer by going all in on wayland. the lack of freedom with wayland has already put me off of it, and if I didn't actually need wayland, I know I personally wouldn't be using it

Damage?
lack of freedom?

Care provide some insight?

I suffer no damage nor lack of freedom -- I use wayland and KDE & Gnome (on 2 different systems) -- and no input lag
(all on opensource drivers thanks to AMD and Mesa + Kernel folks)

[Quackdoc]

Yeah, Arcan looks like it might be a great solution to this problem, but it's just not ready yet.

The project has rather poor visibility, i'm thinking this is deliberate so the devs can work on it at their own pace calmly without being rushed by hordes of people woho wanna see it complete lol.

this would be very understandable, the thing im worried about is the damage linux will suffer by going all in on wayland. the lack of freedom with wayland has already put me off of it, and if I didn't actually need wayland, I know I personally wouldn't be using it

[Quackdoc]

Whatever you tested, it was a flawed approach.

wlroots (sway, wayfire) KDE and gnome all support direct scannout. is there anything actually supporting the claim that there is more delay? I know zamundaaa's blog from late last years demonstrated a single frame of extra delay. however as far as I know those should be mostly solved by now as of mesa 22.0.

EDIT: and this is only with "traditional Vsync" not "mailbox" or "triple buffer" vsync, which beats X

[HellToupee]

KWin currently has a bug where it sometimes creates ghost windows that can't be closed. If it does that on X11, you can just restart the compositor to get rid of them. On Wayland, if you restart the compositor, all your apps go down with it. And that's before we even get to crashes, but the behaviour is the same: X11 is crash-robust but Wayland is not. So no, not a viable replacement just yet. David Edmunsson's robustness work (which fixes this) was done exactly a year ago. Is there something holding it up?

What do you think happens when X.org crashes? All your apps go with it.

[guglovich]

What are you missing?

Setting the compression level, for example. Encrypted archives.

[rabcor]

I've been wondering about arcan for a while. seems like it has compatibility with both wayland apps and x11 apps. it might be worth giving a try soon.

Yeah, Arcan looks like it might be a great solution to this problem, but it's just not ready yet.

The project has rather poor visibility, i'm thinking this is deliberate so the devs can work on it at their own pace calmly without being rushed by hordes of people woho wanna see it complete lol.