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"Apps For GNOME" Launches To Highlight GNOME Apps

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  • #31
    Originally posted by tomas View Post

    Ok, glad I could make you laugh. 😊.
    Now if we could just all figure out why you are laughing? I take it to mean that you don't agree with Bernard's blog post that I linked to? If so, what specifically is it that you take issue with? Perhaps you're suggesting that Gnome is in fact like a software corporation after all and can therefore tell people where to put their resources? Or do you claim that most developers of Gnome apps are paid for working on the app? That is obviously not true. So what is exactly your point?
    ​​​
    EDIT: Ok, I see now that you updated your post after my initial reply. My original post is questioning your belief that resources within the Gnome community can be redirected to work on specific Gnome apps or directed to work on specific features within Gnome apps. Like a software company. However, as we now, the vast majority of gnome app developers are in fact volunteers. Do you dispute this fact? Or in other words, what specifically do you take issue with in Bernard's post?

    ​​​​​
    I completely dispute this fact.
    I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Gnome app developers are developers allocated by corporations to work on those apps on their paid time. The fact that you still believe it's made by volunteers is really funny indeed.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Mez' View Post
      I completely dispute this fact.
      I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Gnome app developers are developers allocated by corporations to work on those apps on their paid time.
      So you believe, but you don't really have anything to back up your claim. At least I gave one reference from a Gnome core developer stating the opposite. Why would he lie? And what makes you believe that a majority of Gnome apps have paid developers behind them?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by tomas View Post

        Some prefer Okular even when running Gnome.
        ​​​https://www.slant.co/versus/15695/16...ince_vs_okular
        Thanks, but I think Evince is more lightweight on my Cinnamon DE. Okular seems to be KDE with a lot off its dependencies.
        I try to keep my system lean and clean.
        Also Evince has never failed me.

        BTW: Damn you Firefox with your totally annoying unnecessary pdf reader!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by tomas View Post

          So you believe, but you don't really have anything to back up your claim. At least I gave one reference from a Gnome core developer stating the opposite. Why would he lie? And what makes you believe that a majority of Gnome apps have paid developers behind them?
          https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...82#post1275182

          I totally share the opinion written here by arQon (2nd quote in the message). And some here are falling for the trick. I get that Gnome apps devs and Gnome devs are not always the same, and sure there might be more community work on the ecosystem (of apps) than on the core (Gnome and GTK), yet I believe the most important apps are not being done by volunteers. I see no point in developing Maps or Boxes or a Web browser from a volunteer's point of view, as there are much better alternatives already (and anchored in users' habits). The only reason you'd want that is to offer a turnkey ecosystem in the corporate world.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Mez' View Post
            And some here are falling for the trick.
            Not at all. See further comments below.

            I get that Gnome apps devs and Gnome devs are not always the same, and sure there might be more community work on the ecosystem (of apps) than on the core (Gnome and GTK)
            Yes, it's in fact a huge difference. Several developers working on the Gnome ecosystem like mutter, shell, gtk etc are paid developers working for example RedHat or Endless or Canonical as you say. That does not translate to the majority of Gnome apps being developed by paid developers, at least not as part of their job.

            yet I believe the most important apps are not being done by volunteers
            But now you're moving the goal post, suddenly referring to "the most important apps".

            I see no point in developing Maps or Boxes or a Web browser from a volunteer's point of view
            Obviously someone sees a point, otherwise they would not be developed. Either you have volunteers and then no one can decide that they should spend their time on something else. Or you have paid developers like Igalia for Epiphany. Apparently they, Igalia, do in fact see a point in developing it. Otherwise why would they?

            The bottom line is: It is a misconception that resources can be "redirected" to work on other apps or features just because some users (like you) think it would be more meaningful. Open source have never worked like that and never will. Otherwise we would not have a plethora of desktop environments / window managers like Gnome, KDE, Cinnamon, Mate, Xfce, Sway, Xmonad, i3, Enlightenment etc etc.
            Why can't we just decide on the "One True Desktop" and "redirect" all resources currently being spread out over several projects? Will never happen.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by tomas View Post
              But now you're moving the goal post, suddenly referring to "the most important apps".
              I'm not moving anything, I'm talking about the whole ecosystem (including circle). Not every single one of the smaller ones come from corporate interests, sure. But the most important ones (in the news here), I believe they do or did originally.

              Originally posted by tomas View Post
              Obviously someone sees a point, otherwise they would not be developed. Either you have volunteers and then no one can decide that they should spend their time on something else. Or you have paid developers like Igalia for Epiphany. Apparently they, Igalia, do in fact see a point in developing it. Otherwise why would they?
              Well, that's exactly what I'm saying.
              1. It's corporations that see a point in developing those
              2. They're wasting resources in NIH stuff

              Originally posted by tomas View Post
              The bottom line is: It is a misconception that resources can be "redirected" to work on other apps or features just because some users (like you) think it would be more meaningful. Open source have never worked like that and never will. Otherwise we would not have a plethora of desktop environments / window managers like Gnome, KDE, Cinnamon, Mate, Xfce, Sway, Xmonad, i3, Enlightenment etc etc.
              Why can't we just decide on the "One True Desktop" and "redirect" all resources currently being spread out over several projects? Will never happen.
              It is your own bottom line. Mine is different.
              It is not always possible to redirect, true, for the reasons you mention. But it is possible to some extent. And I'm convinced even that limited extent would make a noticeable difference on the capacity of Gnome to adapt to the variety of workflows (currently being almost inexistant, with their mindset being that workflows should adapt to Gnome).

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Vasant1234 View Post
                I use XFCE and make it a point to avoid GNOME apps -;(. With CSD they look funny on the XFCE desktop. But occasionally I try out epiphany-browser to see what the gnome developers are up to and I have to say that it must be worst browser for Linux.
                I don't use Epiphany either, but it is quite interesting with a GNOME-native web browser. I am no fan of Epiphany, I use Firefox but Epiphany got this pretty cool feature where you can install websites as applications and it shows up in the GNOME Shell. It feels well integrated.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mez' View Post
                  I get that Gnome apps devs and Gnome devs are not always the same, and sure there might be more community work on the ecosystem (of apps) than on the core (Gnome and GTK), yet I believe the most important apps are not being done by volunteers.
                  I think you and tomas are somewhat talking at cross purposes - you're saying "core Gnome apps", but he seems to be hearing "every app that uses GTK", and there's certainly a difference between the two groups. Gnome seems to have become a lot more secretive about its financials, staffing, etc over the last few years, so it's hard to see what's going on as a casual observer.

                  Regardless, the idea that e.g. Igalia - which is a consulting business with 100+ employees of its own - is producing software "for fun" is patently absurd. I'm sure we can all agree on at least that much.

                  > make a noticeable difference on the capacity of Gnome to adapt to the variety of workflows (currently being almost inexistant, with their mindset being that workflows should adapt to Gnome).

                  This, though, I don't see happening at all. Classen and the rest of Gnome's leadership have repeatedly made it very clear that they're *not interested* in other workflows, or any "other" of *any* kind that isn't exactly what the Gnome team's "vision" is. It's not about manpower, or technical limitations, or any other soluble problem: it's simply a policy, set in stone, that "What users want is not important unless it aligns with our preferences". (That's not the exact wording, but it's close enough).
                  Much like the "It's not a bug, f**k you" attitude re the GTK4 font rendering bug here last week, that attitude is systemic, so no amount of reassigning staff would matter: anyone who isn't on board with that approach isn't allowed into the tribe in the first place.

                  > The only reason you'd want that is to offer a turnkey ecosystem in the corporate world.

                  For Igalia, at least, that appears to be "in-car entertainment systems". Certainly a large enough market for it to be worth gambling on. I wish them luck.

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                  • #39
                    arQon Mez'
                    It does not matter if certain developers work on -any- Gnome app for fun or a part of their dayjob with approval of their management.
                    The point _is_ that the Gnome foundation, you, or I don't have a direct say what and how they do it.

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                    • #40
                      I have written and inherited a number of GTK applications, some are fairly substantial. Yet at no point in time would I consider them Gnome applications. They have no reason to drag in Gnome related dependencies and I really do find any developer who does drag in dependence on Gnome libs to have slightly suspect motives.

                      I could almost see the Gnome foundation pushing the idea of Gnome dependence to prevent other systems (i.e Windows, Mac, KDE) from using the same software easily and thus diminishing their unique selling point. And ultimately this would be in a similar vein to the GPL as a way to push free software which I am not entirely averse to.

                      What I am averse to is the fact that Gnome is flaky as shit and when it falls (like Gnome 1 did and like Gnome 2 did), it will take down *every* single application featured on the Apps for GNOME website unnecessarily. Gnome 3 is not an evolution of Gnome 2. It is a completely different bit of software albeit with the same name and the same will happen again for Gnome 5.

                      GNU tends to favour big tangled systems and unfortunately, in my experience that almost kills lifespan just as badly as closed-source software. Just try to build any considerable program from Gnome 2 and you will see it is fairly impossible without a good few months of manpower to re-engineer. In that time you could basically rewrite it instead.
                      Last edited by kpedersen; 28 August 2021, 08:34 AM.

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