Originally posted by guara
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GNOME Human Interface Guidelines Being Updated For GTK4, Other Modern Features
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Originally posted by jacobWhat is ChromeOS? Hint: it doesn't converge with Android. For a reason.
Originally posted by jacobLet me know when we see a video editor, a debugger GUI, a fully featured office package or CAD software developed in "convergence".
Originally posted by jacobRemember Corel's Java Office? Where is Java Office now? Where is Corel while we are at it?
Originally posted by jacobBecause not all applications need or should be designed with a mobile version in mind in the first place. There are mobile email clients and desktop clients like Thunderbird, Evolution or Outlook that are so feature rich that trying to avoid writing them two or three times means trying to force a square peg into a round hole and the result will inevitably be something crippled and cumbersome on the desktop and unusable on the mobile.
Convergence is about having the base system and simplest applications share one codebase and make appropriate changes to the UI to accommodate different form factors.
By definition they will be compatible with mobile because you are targeting the applications that are used by everyone. (File manager, browser, etc)
There’s nothing that says ALL apps have to be convergent though. There is nothing sensible about that at all.
And where is this idea coming from that they have to be somehow dumbed down or featureless? You just expose the advanced features on the desktop version, usually through a menu of some kind.
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Originally posted by cynical View PostA glorified web browser?
Originally posted by cynical View PostYou’ll never see convergence for those apps because you can’t do those activities on a phone. That doesn’t make convergence a bad idea, it just means it doesn’t apply to those activities.
Originally posted by cynical View PostRight and where is Java? Basically everywhere? And God knows it’s not due to the sheer quality of the language and its APIs…
And that actually reinforces my argument that developing things like JavaOffice (which was the 90s' idea of "convergence") just proved to be a bad idea.
As for Java's qualities as a language and its APIs... well that's finally something we agree on
Originally posted by cynical View PostAnd literally no one is talking about that? I see the issue now. You seem to believe that convergence means “every applications needs to be designed for mobile”, which completely misses the point.
Originally posted by cynical View PostConvergence is about having the base system and simplest applications share one codebase and make appropriate changes to the UI to accommodate different form factors.
Originally posted by cynical View PostBy definition they will be compatible with mobile because you are targeting the applications that are used by everyone. (File manager, browser, etc)
Originally posted by cynical View PostAnd where is this idea coming from that they have to be somehow dumbed down or featureless? You just expose the advanced features on the desktop version, usually through a menu of some kind.
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Originally posted by jacobEven a desktop web browser is a very different beast from a mobile browser.
Originally posted by jacobBut, and as I mentioned in my previous post because I anticipated this exact response, when GUI frameworks like GTK insist on built-in "convergence" (which, until proven otherwise, which it hasn't, means in practice that they won't support anything that wouldn't work for a web service-based app on a 3 inch touch screen), then how do you expect to develop those activities without being hampered by convergence (anti)features?
Originally posted by jacobNot really. Java is used mainly to implement web apps (but losing ground to C#, Go and others) and on Android (but being replaced with Kotlin). Neither was Java's original purpose; the idea of web-based Java Applets, write-once-run-anywhere-in-theory never took off.
Java applets were replaced by JavaScript, which is honestly an even better example with how it has invaded desktop applications. People love being able to target the browser. It’s the #1 most popular application development platform for that reason.
Originally posted by jacobWhen the argument I was responding to was to have the same code base for desktop and mobile (because apparently you must always have a mobile version or else) then I say that's precisely what we are talking about. Case in point, libadwaita wants to replace windows' title bars with mobile style headers and hamper window moving and resizing in the process. To my dismay, the majority here seems to believe that it's a great idea.
Headerbars have nothing to do with convergence. In fact they don’t adapt themselves for mobile by default, which is why libadwaita came about….
Originally posted by jacobOr, in plain English, they can't implement anything, especially in terms of UI workflow, that doesn't fit the most restrictive and least capable form factor.
I think you are just taking how Gnome looks like now, judging that it was designed for mobile but is supposed to be a desktop, and thinking that is what convergent means.
Gnome wasn’t even adaptable until recently. It wasn’t convergent at all even when it had headerbars and big padding, which I take it you don’t like. Your issue seems to be more with Gnome UI design than anything else.
Originally posted by jacobAnd that's exactly my point. Using a mobile file manager or a mobile browser on the desktop is an absolutely appalling proposition. A desktop (not mobile) file manager must by definition let you open as many windows as you want, use the right mouse button correctly, support keyboard shortcuts and have drag&drop front and center (among other things). Neither of those things are even conceivable on a mobile, which means that a "converged" file manager can't support them and is thus automatically worthless and useless on a desktop.
Look I am a programmer. It is not hard. All you do is code the basic features for the mobile version, and then add the extended features under a feature detection flag. Something like, if there is a keyboard available, enable keyboard shortcuts.
Originally posted by jacobHave you compared mobile Firefox vs desktop Firefox? Mobile word processors vs LO or MSO? Mobile text editors vs desktop IDEs? You can't seriously claim that they aren't dumbed down and featureless more than just a little.
Same for all of your other examples. They are written exclusively for mobile or exclusively for desktop, not for both.
If you started with the intention to write for both, you would approach it differently. This is a paradigm shift in thinking that has not occurred yet. It’s like talking about mobile applications before the iPhone came out.
You wouldn’t be able to comprehend apps as they are today back then. The hardware was too slow and nobody was even thinking about it. Then Apple did it and everyone realized it was the way to go. It’s the same with convergent apps.
In the future people will think that having the same OS + apps running on your phone and your desktop was obvious, but I’ll be able to point to posts like yours and say it wasn’t.
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Originally posted by guaraI am quite sure that this does not apply to most users who bought stuff from 4 to 5 years ago and have no intention to throw away a perfectly functional machine. I still wonder why modern GNOME has such a high memory consumption. It has surely improved since the early days of GNOME 3, but 8 GB should be enough for running a DE.
The memory consumption of applications has far outstripped desktop environments.
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Originally posted by delta_vI think, convergence is the ultimate ego, the ultimate hubris of an UI/UX designer.
One set of guidelines to rule them all, one vision that extends to all computer interactions, write once, run anyw^W^W^W^W
You have confused Gnome’s UI design choices for convergence when they have nothing to do with each other.
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Originally posted by jacob View Post
I have built several Android apps. And if you ever built a desktop app, you would know from experience that the UI paradigms and workflows are so different than pretending to handle them with the same logic as a mobile app is only a polite way of saying CRIPPLING it.
Again, I'm not talking about your average Twitter or Tumblr client. I don't care about those on the desktop any more than on mobile. I'm talking, say, about Inkscape (since it's in the news). When that starts being forced into a "convergence"-based UI it will be the end of it.
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Originally posted by cynical View Post
But it is. I run Gnome 3 on an HP Spectre x360 that I purchased in 2015. It has 8GB of memory and works great. Gnome does not have high memory consumption relative to something with equivalent features, in my experience. KDE and Gnome are comparable once you open a few applications, using around 1-1.2GB of memory. A good chunk to be sure, but only 1/8th of my total system memory and far less than Windows.
The memory consumption of applications has far outstripped desktop environments.
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Originally posted by Danny3 View PostAgain with all the crap in the titlebar ?
Does Gnome people never drag the titlebar to the top or left and right sides of the screen and use the keyboard instead ?
They think that Windows developers haven't thought about this already and then they decided to drop it ?
Glad I'm not a Gnome user and the GTK programs that I use don't strictly follow these weird things.
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Originally posted by Danny3 View PostAgain with all the crap in the titlebar ?
Does Gnome people never drag the titlebar to the top or left and right sides of the screen and use the keyboard instead ?
They think that Windows developers haven't thought about this already and then they decided to drop it ?
Glad I'm not a Gnome user and the GTK programs that I use don't strictly follow these weird things.
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