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KDE Plasma 5.22 Beta Ready For Testing With Much Better Wayland Experience

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  • #51
    Originally posted by birdie View Post

    I don't see how you counter anything that I've said earlier. Yes, XFree was split apart and modularized - all the apps written for XFree continued to work just fine in X.org, no one broke compatibility, APIs, nothing.
    Nice, you don't see the 12 years it took to get XFree dragged kicking and screaming into the new century, while working around X11 itself I might add. while grumping and grouching about Wayland, which does very well for its age. Ignoring all the libraries needed to make X11 itself useable and building apps and window managers easier for X11. At the same time scoffing at the really young development of libraries such as WL-Roots, which if you believe the words you say, should not evolve but been ready from day one. While X11 didn't even have auto-configuration after 12 years (on Linux). Meanwhile, ignoring one of your, previous, vocal points. Remote desktop, working even with 3D (for Gnome, Oh yeah I forgot, you covered this with nobody uses Gnome. Done!). Did you even use remote applications with X11? I did and discarded it because the restrictions it had with the newer Graphic toolkits which were not really using it as it was supposed to be used (with transferring bitmaps and such for simple GUI elements. Sadly, I had very few needed Motif applications which worked great with it. I preferred to use XRDP, which was a hell to compile on Scientific Linux, but easier for my users with Windows. So, remote X11 was only a novelty for me, maybe useful in the eighties, begin nineties but after that really not further developed. And not because it was perfect! I really needed something like this at that time for my work. Even GTK through HTTP worked better, not much but better. Maybe you knew of the existence of Linux and dabbled with it from the the nineties on. But you sure never really used it as desktop with your rose-tinted glasses, graybeard!
    Last edited by markus40; 15 May 2021, 01:10 PM.

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    • #52
      Originally posted by Qaridarium

      i think it just need time. just wait another 2 years and all your negativity on wayland will be gone
      I already answered to his "arguments" on why Wayland is not good (the bonus section).
      Some of his arguments make no sense, like the rasterization of pixels one (does he really want full UI toolkit and primitives on Wayland?!).

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      • #53
        Originally posted by markus40 View Post
        Plus putting in autoconfiguration. Let me repeat this, putting in auto-configuration. You know, it was 2004 already by then, 20 years from the beginning of X11. XFree is from 1992, 12 years earlier and no autoconfigure worth mentioning.
        Yup it can not be over stated what an absolute F'ing joy it was to try and create a working config file from scratch in VGA mode, when you couldn't poll the equipment to see what it supported with no copy and paste and usually no internet access because computers were expensive as hell back then so people seldom had a backup. Oh please bring back those good old days.

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        • #54
          Originally posted by Termy View Post

          if you don't see a massive improvement in the past 3 years, then maybe you should rethink your approach to software
          Oh the improvement is clearly there. But the starting point was so low, even after years of improvements, Wayland is not really usable. I think the main blocker is everything is tested just on one developer's machine. Thus, we get tons of bugs that devs don't see and can't reproduce. (Plus, there's no focus for releases improving a particular area, but that's another story.)

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          • #55
            I tested Kubuntu 21.04 under Wayland on a Radeon 6800. It was a great experience overall, except for Firefox. I installed Falkon instead and that was much better.

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            • #56
              Part of what's going on is that Wayland was designed by a bunch of burnt out X developers who were sick and tired of all the complicated stuff being in X and having very few resources devoted their way to fixing them.

              So they decided to make Wayland handle only the most basic stuff they could get away with, and throw all the complicated code over to the compositor side of things.

              It shouldn't be surprising, then, that Mutter/Kwin/etc. are struggling to get things working since they now have all that burden thrown on them.

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              • #57
                Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                Part of what's going on is that Wayland was designed by a bunch of burnt out X developers who were sick and tired of all the complicated stuff being in X and having very few resources devoted their way to fixing them.

                So they decided to make Wayland handle only the most basic stuff they could get away with, and throw all the complicated code over to the compositor side of things.

                It shouldn't be surprising, then, that Mutter/Kwin/etc. are struggling to get things working since they now have all that burden thrown on them.
                I'm also half convinced their mature codebase didn't help with porting a new display protocol. Something like phoc (wlroots based) from Purism is around 2k lines of code and from quick testing (couple of months) seems to have stellar performance and perfect(?) wayland compatibility.

                The main problem from wlroots seems to be API breaks between each versions. Can't wait for it to stabilize so production compositors can start using it because calling kwin's timing based compositing bad would be an understatement.

                To be clear, if they were to fix it (maybe with QT6 vulkan?), KDE would probably border on the line of perfection.

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                • #58
                  I say with every release I'm looking forward to trying the Wayland session then something always has me back on X11. Not even that long ago it was the whole session sometimes crashing when opening a second web browser window. Right now it's context menus being closed by tooltips (https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=417939). At least there is progress being made.

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                  • #59
                    Originally posted by ResponseWriter View Post
                    I say with every release I'm looking forward to trying the Wayland session then something always has me back on X11. Not even that long ago it was the whole session sometimes crashing when opening a second web browser window. Right now it's context menus being closed by tooltips (https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=417939). At least there is progress being made.
                    A workaround is to just disable the preview popup of the taskbar.

                    In most cases I don't need it anyway: it's too small to recognize anything meaningful, large enough to be in the way and its popping up distracts me

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                    • #60
                      Originally posted by reba View Post

                      A workaround is to just disable the preview popup of the taskbar.

                      In most cases I don't need it anyway: it's too small to recognize anything meaningful, large enough to be in the way and its popping up distracts me
                      That's only a partial fix since it also happens with system tray icons that display a tooltip.

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