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  • #41
    You read 5 pages of comments and what you got is that Wayland has been done to wipe out everything but Gnome and KDE...

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    • #42
      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      Wake me up when I can run a Wayland session without the fear that all my running applications can crash in an instant (and e.g. Kwin loves crashing).
      Wake me up when you fix X problems and start maintaining it. It's a dead horse, so your BS is pure trolling.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by birdie View Post
        And a dead compositor means all your Wayland applications have crashed hard and fast. Under X.org and Windows? Kill your WM/dwm.exe as many times as you want. Never used MacOS, so I don't know how it works on that side of the pond.
        I keep forgetting about this and every time I read it it baffles me.
        I can't help but wonder who thought that it was okay to release* a compositor that when it crashes also closes all the other applications.
        I mean, it's a little overreacting

        *let alone deem it production ready

        Originally posted by Volta View Post
        It's a dead horse
        Yes it is. And it still beats the young one in some races...
        Last edited by JackLilhammers; 15 April 2021, 06:34 PM.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
          You read 5 pages of comments and what you got is that Wayland has been done to wipe out everything but Gnome and KDE...
          You can opt to put more than 10 comments on a page.
          What you should get out of is this is that Wayland might not be the best way forward for smaller desktop environments because of poor design decisions.

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          • #45
            I can’t remember the last time I had a crash under Wayland. Mutter must have matured since then because it’s been a fantastic experience under Gnome. I am on Ubuntu so your experience may vary.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by JackLilhammers View Post
              I keep forgetting about this and every time I read it it baffles me.
              I can't help but wonder who thought that it was okay to release* a compositor that when it crashes also closes all the other applications.
              I mean, it's a little overreacting

              *let alone deem it production ready
              Well, this is my understanding: With X11, we eventually ended up with a compositor on top of a window manager on top of an xserver. (originally there was no compositors, and that had to be bodged on top as an additional thing.) So, your compositor can crash, and your window manager can crash, and the xserver keeps the applications alive. And of course, if the xserver dies everything goes away.

              With wayland, the compositor is also the window manager, and since there is no Xserver, they also add in the wayland protocol bits, which is just how applications render into buffers and how the compositor interacts with them. So, if there are not three separate things, then if it crashes everything goes away. Putting it all together is probably just the simplest way to move legacy projects over to wayland, and maybe it has some efficiencies. They could have a separate small simple process that either does the wayland protocol bits and interacts with the compositor, or perhaps exists as an intermediary so that the applications are not dropped and maintain some state if the compositor goes away. Perhaps my understanding is flawed, though I seem to recall seeings discussions along these lines.

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              • #47
                Originally posted by birdie View Post
                I have to admit though that running IceWM/JWM/awesomewm with Kwin is impossible because the first three are window managers in themselves, so they drive both windows and show the taskbar, so if you try to `kwin --replace` them you will be left without the taskbar. But still you can use any of them to replace kwin in KDE no problem as indicated above. No idea if I can do the same with Gnome/mutter - I last used Gnome 20 years ago. For some reasons I believed that IceWM has a separate application driving the taskbar which is not true.
                This is still you have not done it or when you did you did not proper test it. Using IceWM to replace kwin works at first. But you will normally have full X11 server crash inside 1 hour the cause is that change over and the fact IceWM did not take over everywhere kwin was hooked in. By the way hooking something in X11 leads to the X11 server increasing in memory usage as is storing the information waiting for something to come pick it up and when nothing does keeps on collecting until it runs out of memory and is killed.

                This is where the modern general recommendation to log out and back in has come from with X11 windows managers instead of using replace functions.

                Yes gnome and kde hook themselves into different parts of X11.

                --Wake me up when I can run a Wayland session without the fear that all my running applications can crash in an instant (and e.g. Kwin loves crashing).--
                You can have this problem with X11 if you do exactly what you said. Yes replacing same windows manager with it self works under X11. Changing windows managers makes risk x11 server unstable due to the different parts of X11 they can be hooking. Yes the most likely outcome of changing X11 window managers these days is a unstable X11 server that will crash at some point.

                Mac OS does not have a separate compositor Mac OS has a setup very much like gnome and kde wayland just a better quality compositor with less defects.

                The multi threading work with the new Scenes system with KDE will improve it Wayland stability.

                birdie this was you suggesting something that historically use to work dependably with X11 but over 15 years has not.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by birdie View Post
                  ILastly, you can enjoy X.org applications running without a WM at all: https://imgur.com/a/qS0plEf
                  This statement is not right either.

                  Originally posted by birdie View Post
                  Not only that, you can switch between them and interact with any of them. You just cannot move them around and bring them to front/put them in background.
                  This is also not true.

                  https://github.com/patrickhaller/no-wm
                  Turns out the X11 server includes windows manager just all its control keys have been unbounded by default so you don't have the X11 server built in windows manager fighting with user started WM. Also is a CSD windows manager where it was design to expect that the applications would render their own boarders. Wait your picture shows a stack of miss behaving applications. Yes if all the keys are bound so the X11 server built in WM works you can move windows around, bring them to the front and put them in background without a extra windows manager.

                  This explains why those who have been writing windows managers now they have to do their own work is finding it so hard. Lot of cases the heavy lifting of the Windows Manager is being done by the X11 server built in Windows Manager.

                  The reality is you cannot run X11 without a windows manager. Horrible that the default X11 windows manager is basically totally crippled out the box.

                  By the way the earliest versions of the X11 protocol have zero support for third party windows managers so you had to use the build one and of course back then the built in one was keybound out the box. Fun it as a 5 button mouse one of those buttons was to resize windows.

                  Last edited by oiaohm; 16 April 2021, 02:33 AM.

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by JackLilhammers View Post
                    I keep forgetting about this and every time I read it it baffles me.
                    I can't help but wonder who thought that it was okay to release* a compositor that when it crashes also closes all the other applications.
                    I mean, it's a little overreacting

                    *let alone deem it production ready
                    It's not just about crashing though. It's about Gnome memory needing a reset once in a while, it's about applying/updating an extension or a change of theme when you modified a CSS, or when all of a sudden Gnome apps stop being responsive or launch with 30 seconds delay (happen sometimes with Nautilus - Gnome Disks - Gnome System Monitor) while other apps keep on working normally. These are all issues that can be solved with a quick refresh in X. Having to log out and back in for that in wayland is not just overreacting, it's against productiivity as you won't get back your workflow state after logging back in. But it matches the "get in the way" of productivity philosophy of Gnome.

                    Originally posted by JackLilhammers View Post
                    Yes it is. And it still beats the young one in some races...
                    Not replying is the best course of action here.
                    Wayland hardcore advocates look like russian trolls. And they're often Fedora fanboys/activists. They try to infiltrate forums and convince people in an inelaborate way that "we should all move on to wayland already", because "X is prehistory" and "it's dead" and "why are we still talking about it?". Trying to look cool, like they're ahead of the game. It's almost funny how obvious they are at overdoing it.

                    Except wayland is still very much a work in progress, even with the generally accepted most advanced compositors (e.g: Mutter).
                    I tried it for a whole day this week, got a few issues (Unite extension is partly broken under wayland, SMPlayer doesn't have GPU acceleration, ctrl+scroll for zooming in gthumb is broken, no refresh as discussed above, etc...), but mostly I got fed up with the weird fluidity and went back to X. It seems fast on the surface, sure, but after a while you get that it's just because there's too much inertia, so it feels unstable/getting out of control.
                    With X your actions (moving a window or just the cursor, scrolling...) feel under control, you get a slight feel of resistance so that it reacts faster when you slow down or stop your movement, just as it should.
                    X acts like the engine natural braking due to your current gear in a manual car when you lift your foot off the pedal, you immediately feel the car getting resistance because your gear is lower than should be (purposedly). With wayland, you're like one of these morons with automatic cars braking hard every few milliseconds (and their braking lights creating artificial danger for the next car) because they can't play with the gears to slow down naturally and they have no other way to keep it under control. The feeling is just horrible. Kind of fake.
                    Last edited by Mez'; 16 April 2021, 05:30 AM.

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Mez' View Post
                      It's not just about crashing though. It's about Gnome memory needing a reset once in a while, it's about applying/updating an extension or a change of theme when you modified a CSS, or when all of a sudden Gnome apps stop being responsive or launch with 30 seconds delay (happen sometimes with Nautilus - Gnome Disks - Gnome System Monitor) while other apps keep on working normally. These are all issues that can be solved with a quick refresh in X.
                      If you look at the gnome bugzilla you will find that quick refresh in X is a roll of the dice. The reality is some users report that fails. The problems causing that under X11 do need to be fixed instead of depending on hack solution that yes works 99% the 1% where it does not session crashes taking you work with it.

                      Wayland with gnome has made existing code defect way more in face.

                      Mez' my big point is there is no one to maintain X11 on bare metal. If people are going to remain there the resources have to found to fix that. If the resources cannot found you need to accept that X11 is a dead end and start working in the direction of getting the wayland parts fixed.

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