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  • #11
    Originally posted by birdie

    The negativity? I'm on X.org thank you very much and I am mostly OK with it. It's just here on Phoronix forums everything that doesn't support Wayland is "crap" (all the DEs and toolkits) or "evil" (NVIDIA).
    Pffff, really? Why? If you're happy with your setup, why caring what others think of it? My setup has received flak since I first used it in 1998, It still supported, get updated, remain interesting for me. Same for you, Xorg and Nvidia, who is in there for the money, so it is financial profitable for them, supports your setup quite well. Better than Wayland I might add. So, why the negativity, do you really need the world agreeing with you?

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    • #12
      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      I'm perfectly aware of that. Too bad this issue stands in the face of each minor DE which wants to support Wayland which kinda speaks volumes about Wayland, its design, usability and APIs. But Wayland proponents will say it's all working as intended. Is it working though? Even KDE/Kwin is still fixing issues although they started over two years ago and that's a major project with decent financial support. LXQt, XFCE, IceWM, JWM, Enlightenment all get zero funding.
      Really X.org has been very short on funding for decades.

      https://www.enlightenment.org/ as normal you screw up birdie. Enlightenment is funded by Samsung its on that page so like it or not Enlightenment is funded. Enlightenment for the usages Samsung wants in Tizen need to move to wayland for the improved security.

      IceWM the lead developer and only developer has decided not to support Wayland it will die out is it current plan.

      Before Wayland came a major thing JWM has had a growing bug issue without the personal to deal with it. This includes faults that are in the security fault class.

      XFCE is considering there options.

      Please remember Sway is a small team with no major company funding. Yes the sway team come out of the decanted fans/developers of the i3 X11 windows manager.

      Birdie you skipped over that Sway is only a slightly larger team than LXQt. Enlightenment has more developers than sway but they have had to be splitting their focus between support X11 and doing Wayland.

      JWM and IceWM are both is basically a solo developer so critical short on resources to the point a single person gets hit by a bus they are a dead project.

      LXQt and XFCE does have more than one primary developer so are very much more healthy projects. Of course Enlightenment is more healthy in developers than LXQT and XFCE.

      Migration to Wayland will thin the options mostly remove the projects that were already critically under resourced. Yes majority critically under resourced to maintain a X11 Windows manager they absolutely don't have the resources to take up X11 server maintenance or even take proper care of their own code base.



      .

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      • #13
        Originally posted by DanL

        Threads about smaller desktops or KDE/Qt constantly getting trolled to death by GNOME shills on this site. That's where the negativity comes from.
        Funny, my experience is that Gnome submissions are getting trolled since its first release. Mostly I don't care, if it is getting to tiresome I skip it. Life goes on...

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        • #14
          Originally posted by Alexmitter View Post
          They had to implement their own or use someone else's Xorg compositor before. Now they have to implement their own or use someone else's Wayland compositor.
          I don't recall any X.org DE/WM ever using someone else's compositor if not just for fun because it's perfectly possible unlike Wayland where good luck using Mutter under KDE or Kwin under Gnome - in both cases the result will be a broken environment.

          Stating the obvious [quite broken things] is nowadays what Linux fans call "trolling". Let it be, hopefully it will cheer you up and make you feel happy about yourself. In my world however it's a deal-breaker because under X.org I'm free to use any compositor under any DE (e.g. I can use KWin under IceWM, or IceWM's WM under XFCE) and under Wayland it's just not possible or intended. Oh, and I can swap them or kill them any time I want - applications will continue running as if nothing has happened. Under Wayland? Mutter dies - your whole session dies, Kwin dies - the same result. Such a forward thinking! Oh, and under Windows I'm free to kill/restart dwm.exe as often as I want - again applications will continue running.

          The whole Wayland concept that each DE must reimplement their own WM with a ton of APIs (not limited to monitor/input/input method handling, clipboard handing, drag-n-drop, screen recording/casting, networking) is a load of BS of astronomical proportions. No other successful OS in history has ever required this amount of duplication of work.

          This all must have been part of the Wayland protocol/server/whatever and the compositor will just have had to draw window decorations - that's how it should have implemented in the first place. This way KDE and everyone else wouldn't have spent hundreds of hours debugging and solving the same issues over and over again.

          And don't BS me with wlroots, please. It's an afterthought, an excuse, an attempt to salvage the broken concept.

          Lastly you could stop calling me names if you want to look professional and unbiased.
          Last edited by birdie; 15 April 2021, 11:18 AM.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by birdie View Post
            Stating the obvious [quite broken things] is nowadays what Linux fans call "trolling". Let it be, hopefully it will cheer you up and make you feel happy about yourself. In my world however it's a deal-breaker because under X.org I'm free to use any compositor under any DE (e.g. I can use KWin under IceWM, or IceWM's WM under XFCE) and under Wayland it's just not possible or intended.
            I guess you never tried that out. The reality if you use Kwin under iceWM thing will go massively wrong. Its due to the way X11 compositing extension is done. It started with the best intentions but after years of Kde/gnome/other parties random private extensions mix and match of any compositor under any DE has not worked for at least 8 years with X11.

            This is a on going tread people claim X11 feature is need when in reality it has not worked for 8 years or more.

            Wayland was designed from the start to be stack able.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

              https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap

              XFCE on their roadmap is the option to cease to be a DE in the Wayland world and instead just be a collection of light weight applications.
              Ceasing to exist is an option for every project. Simply because it is an option, doesn't mean it will happen.
              In my opinion, if Xfce and LXQt cease to exist, it won't be because of Wayland or lack of resources to update their stack, it will be because the need for a lightweight DE is nearly non-existent in 2021.
              Back in 2006, my 1997 Pentium MMX laptop could run DWM at best while my fathers 2004 Pentium M laptop could run everything. Fast-forward to today and any 10 to 15 year old mediocre laptop will run GNOME and KDE just fine. Heck, just until last year, I ran GNOME on my 2008 Core Duo MacBook. It stuttered here and there but it was completely usable. Not to mention that the old and obsolete laptops that we have today, have multitouch touchpads and touchscreens (that fad started around 2010), and as far as I know only GNOME and KDE have touch and gesture support.
              Xfce and LXQt have transitioned from projects that someone had a legitimate use and/or need for, to being purely hobby projects.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by birdie View Post

                I'm perfectly aware of that. Too bad this issue stands in the face of each minor DE which wants to support Wayland which kinda speaks volumes about Wayland, its design, usability and APIs. But Wayland proponents will say it's all working as intended. Is it working though? Even KDE/Kwin is still fixing issues although they started over two years ago and that's a major project with decent financial support. LXQt, XFCE, IceWM, JWM, Enlightenment all get zero funding.
                What do you mean Enlightenment gets zero funding? Did I miss the news that Samsung ceased funding it?

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by Vistaus View Post

                  What do you mean Enlightenment gets zero funding? Did I miss the news that Samsung ceased funding it?
                  I didn't know that, thank you! I can't quite understand if the entire Enlightenment project is financed by Samsung or it's only part of it which Samsung uses, a significant part nonetheless.

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                  • #19
                    I might as well post, as I use Lxqt as my main desktop. Lxqt is a nice, uses few resources, and keeps getting better with each release. The dock functionality is really a great addition. Lxqt will never have everything to please everyone, it isnt designed to be that. Those that are complaining its missing something are welcome to jump in and contribute to its development with code or cash. The opinion of those that are unwilling to do so really doesnt matter.

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by birdie View Post

                      I'm perfectly aware of that. Too bad this issue stands in the face of each minor DE which wants to support Wayland which kinda speaks volumes about Wayland, its design, usability and APIs. But Wayland proponents will say it's all working as intended. Is it working though? Even KDE/Kwin is still fixing issues although they started over two years ago and that's a major project with decent financial support. LXQt, XFCE, IceWM, JWM, Enlightenment all get zero funding.
                      Well, they either had to implement their own X WM or reuse an existing one. I see that some people are running LXQt with Sway instead of OpenBox and are in support of it replacing OB.

                      KDE is indeed still fixing issues but.... they are still fixing a lot of issues that are not related to Wayland at all and have been resolved in other DEs like GNOME and Xfce (which is not a large project nor is it funded in any stable way). Last time I was working and using KDE/Qt stuff was 4-5 years ago and the biggest problem that I could see is that most of the developers are trying to please almost every single user. In theory it's a good thing and you end up with feature-rich software but in reality most of the components were buggy because they tried to do too much at the same time and the devs were starting to fight on how to fix different issues. Seeing how they still continue to fight among themselves and have different approaches to the same thing (KWin and KWinFT for example), I'm guessing things haven't changed much and that is the reason for the slow progress.

                      Enlightenment has full Wayland support. In fact it was one of the first ones to get it, if I'm not mistaken. And yes, LXQt, Xfce, IceWM, JWM, OpenBox, DWM, Enlightenment, etc are all hobby projects. They either have no funding (by choice) or have funding in the form of donations which come and go, basically at random. Their use-case is just not that big, for people and companies to start funding them seriously. The only exception to this is Enlightenment which has seen some commercial uses here and there but that was years ago.
                      If they get Wayland support, great, if not, well what can one do? Sponsor and/or contribute code? It's an option but that is a very time consuming and resource heavy task and only a few people would invest like that in, what is still, just a hobby project.

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