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  • #31
    Originally posted by gukin View Post
    Malware, ransomware, whatever Denuvo is awful.

    Even if it didn't steal my identity, wipe out my bank account, generate false evidence of anti-social behaviour against me, it did the next worst thing: it
    kept shutting me down when I stupidly bought Shadow of the Tomb Raider before Feral had finished their port!

    I'd be playing along, stop for a few minutes, try start back up and I'd have a popup on the screen with a stupid message like "Something went wrong, try again in 24 hours". This happened many, many times, enough such that I won't buy a Denuvo crippled title again.

    I do wish that all this DRM wasn't necessary but some, like Denuvo, take it too far.
    Hearing that makes me very glad that my attitude toward DRM is "GOG's catalogue is how I learn of the existence of games too new to be had on cartridge, floppy disk, or pre-2005 CD-ROM on eBay".


    • #32
      Originally posted by birdie View Post

      An idiotic correction. Denuvo is DRM, not malware. Malware is something which actively harms your PC or life whuke Denuvo does nothing aside from making it harder to steal something it protects.
      There is 2 Denuvos.

      One is DRM to prevent piracy, and it does a lot of wierd stuff like virtualization of code to make code harder to reverse engineer for sake of piracy. This one as far as i know doesn't install stuff to kernel and i think doesn't even require admin privilages to run.

      Denuvo anticheat is new product of denuvo to prevent cheating in games and that one installs kernel mode driver and that one is potentially harmful, as kernel mode drivers are perfect surface to attack and they cannot be monitored easly. Denuvo anticheat doesn't protect you, it protects others from "you".

      The thing is you may not trust program written by someone and it is fine, but thing is if it does something shady antivirus might notice it and warn you, if you have something like HIPS in windows you will notice something does what it is not supposed to, you can easly look in sysinternals System Monitor what something does. And in kernel mode driver like denuvo anticheat you can't. What is more a lot of those anti-cheat deploys own stuff to detect they run in VM so you cannot even isolate them if you are concerned.
      Last edited by piotrj3; 11 April 2021, 07:37 PM.


      • #33
        Originally posted by piotrj3 View Post
        There is 2 Denuvos.
        There is in fact many Denuvos. There are 3 product lines.
        1) Anti-Tamper that what people commonly call DRM.
        2) Anti-Cheat
        3) Cyber Services

        3 is software review and service side work so not the application on users machines.

        1 and 2 the application developer using them gets to decide what features are enabled. Like the anti-tamper can have dongle option if it does then it has a kernel driver. So both the anti-tamper and anti-cheat can have a ring 0 driver part. Both 1 and 2 provide the options that application developer can enable for silent downloading of and running executable code without user consent. Both 1 and 2 provide options for sending debugging data back to server without user consent.... and the list goes on of features they put at the developers finger tips to-do stuff without the end users knowledge.

        Denuvo products can make it really easy to write malware by mistake. Denuvo products are a very powerful tool. Developer using Denuvo products can screw up badly either killing performance or making their end users a sitting duck.

        Yes some games using Denuvo have been flagged as malware by different antivirus companies then have received update that was really fixing the malware issue because the developer had used Denuvo in way that was wrong.

        Denuvo is absolute a potentially unwanted application(PUA). As in it could be there for right reasons but it also could be their with very wrong reasons. Some ways it would be good if Denuvo included standard EULA generation as in you have enabled X feature in Denuvo products the following lines will be in the EULA of your product so end users can know they are there. Like you see a game with remote trigger-able uploading of any file feature enabled you can go hell no(yes that is a feature you can turn on in Denuvo).


        • #34
          Originally posted by birdie View Post
          There's this thing called "presumption of innocence" - please always remember about it. Also, there's this other thing called "Occam's razor" which helps deal with conspiracies.
          Even if I do agree with this statements in general I would like to say that in sensitive fields a higher state of alertness should not be considered as tinhat wearing.

          If you hire a driver to deliver parcels a minor drug abuse history might not be an issue or the usage of drugs after work.
          But If you hire a "driver" for a plane you certainly don't want to speculate if that guy still likes to use drugs more than the average.

          Or would you like to place a person with tied bonds to North Korean Diplomats in an executive position of the CIA?
          Even if the guy is really not a fan of Juche and has no association to NK Regime- he just likes the language and the food?

          I would also not hire Nigerians Arms Dealers to protect my diamond collection even if they might be tough guys with excellent skills telling me that they are nice and they just did it for the money but they hate their job.

          So why shouldn't I raise questions about the undisclosed software screwing in the lower rings of my kernel?
          Last edited by CochainComplex; 15 April 2021, 10:34 AM.