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  • #51
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    Note its also been a problem with the GUI for libinput in X11 mode as well with KDE and Gnome not displaying all libinput settings. So not a just a wayland problem. Wayland makes you see it because you now have to use libinput.
    Of course, as I explained this is a libinput problem. However as I explained, while on Xorg I can use legacy drivers which work fine, in wayland libinput is a requirement, legacy drivers don't work, that's why I'm struggling to make it work. I immediately specified that mine is not a wayland war, which I want to use as soon as possible, but I would like it to work well or at least like in Xorg.

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    • #52
      Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
      Of course, as I explained this is a libinput problem. However as I explained, while on Xorg I can use legacy drivers which work fine, in wayland libinput is a requirement, legacy drivers don't work, that's why I'm struggling to make it work. I immediately specified that mine is not a wayland war, which I want to use as soon as possible, but I would like it to work well or at least like in Xorg.
      You keep on saying the legacy drivers with X11 work fine. Have you not noticed that distributions have been attempt not to install those legacy drivers at all with X11.

      Reality is the legacy driver synaptics in with X11 is on borrowed time for a decade. Linux and freebsd kernel developers want to remove synaptics interfaces because they are security flawed. Distributions don't want users using synaptics driver. There are a lot of new touchpads that will not work at all with the synaptics driver so with those you must use libinput. The reality since synaptics driver does not have a maintainer no new hardware support is coming to it.

      It was 2010 when the synaptics driver lost is maintainer that has never been replaced. So 2 days of trouble getting wayland to work now with libinput issues??? The reality is work to migrate you self over to Libinput should have started back in 2010 with bug reports and feature requests.

      The idea of using a legacy driver to work around a problem gets yourself in these dangerous positions where you don't provide the feed back you should have to what was the driver going forwards to get the features you need.

      Be it remain on X11 or move to wayland at some point you will be forced to update your hardware at that point you will be forced to use libinput be your choice to use Wayland or X11 bare metal as nothing else will drive the laptops touchpad. So even if the kernel developers and distributions developers don't kill off synaptics its hardware will for you at some point. No matter how you look at it the legacy drivers of X11 are on borrowed time of usefulness it more of a question when will it fail for you not if.

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      • #53
        Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
        You keep on saying the legacy drivers with X11 work fine. Have you not noticed that distributions have been attempt not to install those legacy drivers at all with X11.

        Reality is the legacy driver synaptics in with X11 is on borrowed time for a decade. Linux and freebsd kernel developers want to remove synaptics interfaces because they are security flawed. Distributions don't want users using synaptics driver. There are a lot of new touchpads that will not work at all with the synaptics driver so with those you must use libinput. The reality since synaptics driver does not have a maintainer no new hardware support is coming to it.

        It was 2010 when the synaptics driver lost is maintainer that has never been replaced. So 2 days of trouble getting wayland to work now with libinput issues??? The reality is work to migrate you self over to Libinput should have started back in 2010 with bug reports and feature requests.

        The idea of using a legacy driver to work around a problem gets yourself in these dangerous positions where you don't provide the feed back you should have to what was the driver going forwards to get the features you need.

        Be it remain on X11 or move to wayland at some point you will be forced to update your hardware at that point you will be forced to use libinput be your choice to use Wayland or X11 bare metal as nothing else will drive the laptops touchpad. So even if the kernel developers and distributions developers don't kill off synaptics its hardware will for you at some point. No matter how you look at it the legacy drivers of X11 are on borrowed time of usefulness it more of a question when will it fail for you not if.
        It's not my fault that the legacy driver works fine and the new one kept sucks! Should I switch to Windows? When you are on the support forum of any distribution and ask for support for this issue, everyone says install the synaptic driver. Most likely everyone knows that the new driver sucks and there are two cases, you use the device badly and unsatisfactorily, or you use the old driver until it stops working.
        Devs have to take it into their heads, that people will always try to use their devices in the most comfortable way, they don't care if the driver is maintained or not, it works better is what matters.
        Last edited by Charlie68; 22 March 2021, 10:12 PM.

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        • #54
          Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
          It's not my fault that the legacy driver works fine and the new one kept sucks! Should I switch to Windows? When you are on the support forum of any distribution and ask for support for this issue, everyone says install the synaptic driver. Most likely everyone knows that the new driver sucks and there are two cases, you use the device badly and unsatisfactorily, or you use the old driver until it stops working.
          Devs have to take it into their heads, that people will always try to use their devices in the most comfortable way, they don't care if the driver is maintained or not, it works better is what matters.
          Notice something here. In your complete process where was there open a bug report with libinput about libinput features and where was bug against gnome kde and others to improve the UI.

          You said "Most likely everyone knows" The problem the fact for most of these touch pads that don't right for users with libinput and people just use synaptics driver instead results directly in no reports. Not everyone knows. The key people who could possible fix the libinput problems lot of the cases don't know.


          Charlie68 the hard reality here the fact you did not open a bug report because it would not work right with libinput and everyone who just gave you advice to just synaptics driver and not open a bug report has basically caused the Wayland change over problem you hit now.

          Start think about this. If you had reported this fault years ago the developers of gnome/KDE and libinput would have years to address these problems. But since you foolishly like many others use a legacy driver without report the fault in the non legacy driver you have dug yourself into hole.

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          • #55
            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

            Notice something here. In your complete process where was there open a bug report with libinput about libinput features and where was bug against gnome kde and others to improve the UI.

            You said "Most likely everyone knows" The problem the fact for most of these touch pads that don't right for users with libinput and people just use synaptics driver instead results directly in no reports. Not everyone knows. The key people who could possible fix the libinput problems lot of the cases don't know.


            Charlie68 the hard reality here the fact you did not open a bug report because it would not work right with libinput and everyone who just gave you advice to just synaptics driver and not open a bug report has basically caused the Wayland change over problem you hit now.

            Start think about this. If you had reported this fault years ago the developers of gnome/KDE and libinput would have years to address these problems. But since you foolishly like many others use a legacy driver without report the fault in the non legacy driver you have dug yourself into hole.
            You're wrong, I always report out the bugs and even in this case I tried to report it, but it was filed as incomplete, as I could not do debugs and diagnosed it properly. I can't pass a week on this, these days I have more time I tried and the problems have not changed, so I'm trying to debug and diagnostic as I was recommended to me, but I still have problems providing all the data.
            Don't always give things for granted. I repeat for the last time and then they don't write anymore on this, I'm not doing a war to anyone, but evidently there is a problem and the problems must be solved without pretending that these do not exist, only for the good name of a software or because Some think you want to denigrate the software. I'm not a dev, I don't have the competence to say that the code is good or bad and I would never allow myself to do it, but as a user I can tell if what I have today works better or worse than the one that was there before. In life in general, you want to evolve to improve and not to get worse, user experience (not just mine but many users) has deteriorated, then you will surely improve under other aspects, but the user experience has deteriorated. Please don't take my every word to the letter, I'm writing in English that is not my language, so take into consideration that there may be errors, but the sense of what I mean I think it is clear. Hello everybody.

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            • #56
              Originally posted by Morty View Post
              No, KDE newer used LightDM.
              https://github.com/KDE/lightdm and many distributions switched from KDM to LightDM-KDE because KDM was de facto unmaintained.

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              • #57
                Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
                You're wrong, I always report out the bugs and even in this case I tried to report it, but it was filed as incomplete, as I could not do debugs and diagnosed it properly. I can't pass a week on this, these days I have more time I tried and the problems have not changed, so I'm trying to debug and diagnostic as I was recommended to me, but I still have problems providing all the data.
                Something to remember here again should you have to doing this alone. Or should all the places for your problem been recommend you use synaptics where not recommending go common bug in libinput/gnome/kde so the workload to collect this debug information could be shared between people who all have the same hardware.

                Remember we should not be talking about you doing diagnostics now. Libinput 1.0 was 2015. So you have a bug report that was closed as incomplete from 2015?

                Collecting the data a bug report needs to be fixed at times can take over a year. You don't want to leave complex bug reporting to the last min. Yes different bugs its take me over 8 months to work out how to get the data that the developer can see the problem.

                Due to how hard this you do want to be able to work as a team as possible. To make a case to Redhat or any other party that that a problem need funding developers need bug reports that have many connected users with the same hardware with the same problems.

                Like it or not there processes that have to happen and if they don't happen the result is dig self into hole and possible many other people with you. You might be one of the rare people who did the right thing and open a bug report then all the others who just used synaptics driver to fix the problem have not joined and supported your bug reports to make your bug look critical.

                This is a problem the developer of a project who is under resourced has to make hard choices here based on information at hand. The answer everyone knows is normally bad because this results in the developer not knowing how many users in fact problem because they are not reporting it in the bug system in most cases. Also if they are reporting it in a bug system they are not organising themselves so all join a common bug of XYZ hardware to show need.

                You think about if you are like libinput developer you have a bug report with a few 100 hundred users with a particular type of hardware having a problem with that you may be able to convince your boss to buy you that bit of hardware to fix it directly or a maker of that hardware to donate it for free to fix the problem directly. This not created by the users leaves the developer stuck not resourced to directly fix problem.

                Lack of information in the developers hands here really does limit what the developer can do. Its something with these problems you need to be thinking about. Its really easy to say libinput is hard to do X or is lack Y and failing to see how you cog in the machine that can make those changes possible by performing the right actions.

                Please note was was not saying you alone. Look around for all the cases of wikis recommending using the synaptics driver find one with a shared bug report section for people have different troubles with libinput.
                Last edited by oiaohm; 23 March 2021, 05:48 PM.

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                • #58
                  Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                  https://github.com/KDE/lightdm and many distributions switched from KDM to LightDM-KDE because KDM was de facto unmaintained.
                  Does not change the fact, KDM was the default fromKDE. (Same as thecase of JuK and Noatun berfore that, they where the KDE mediaplayer, Even tho Amarok was prefered by many).

                  Besides if I recall correctly, lightdm was only used by Ubuntu and derivatives so saying many distributions switched are stretching it a little far.

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                  • #59
                    Originally posted by Morty View Post
                    Does not change the fact, KDM was the default fromKDE.
                    Funny how "KDE newer used LightDM" became "KDM was the default". I've never claimed that LightDM-KDE was the one and only display manager KDE used. LightDM-KDE was developed by KDE people on KDE infrastructure, promoted by KDE, and Plasma developers wrote integration code like the LightDM-KDE KCM. That's good enough to count as "use" in my book.

                    Originally posted by Morty View Post
                    Besides if I recall correctly, lightdm was only used by Ubuntu and derivatives so saying many distributions switched are stretching it a little far.
                    Well, if 3rd party derivatives like Linux Mint KDE, Netrunner, etc. don't count, then you're right.

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