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  • #41
    Originally posted by caligula View Post
    Isn't SDDM pretty much dead
    Yes, pretty much. https://github.com/sddm/sddm/pull/1367 and https://github.com/sddm/sddm/pull/1379 are open – the first being a KDE developer reviving old Wayland patches and the latter being an improvement over the first but in nine days nobody cared to review it. I don't get the attachment to it. SDDM has always been inferior to LightDM with the LightDM-KDE greeter which KDE used in the Plasma 4.x days. For a change Canonical wrote useful software and certain vocal people within KDE lobbied against it, despite the fact that greeters are completely autonomous projects that aren't being touched by LightDM's CLA at all. According to https://github.com/canonical/lightdm...addec1e081e5c7 LightDM supports Wayland greeters and sessions since six years. Lower commit numbers are not so important with LightDM because it's only the back-end technology and most work needs to go into greeters anyway.

    I've had good experiences using GDM, btw. Runs under Wayland, under active development, packaged everywhere.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
      This explains the state of Linux on the desktop!
      Being under resourced is a big problem.

      Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
      Who says this?
      Windows allows you to make changes, you don't have to be a computer guru to do it.
      Nobody has the truth in their pocket, there are users who modify it, others who are comfortable with the default settings.
      The reality here is hard. There are many surveys on what setting users change with windows. In university and business computer networks its important to know what setting changes you can in fact disable and users will not notice. The reality is 90% of users have to have a use able default settings because they are not going to change the mouse/touch pad settings.

      Hard fact just because Windows or any other OS provides a feature does not mean many users in fact use it. So out the box defaults on touchpads, mice. keyboards... have to be generically decent as majority of users need that as that the only setting they will be using.

      Windows does not allow you to change everything with input devices. The changes you make in Windows is already have limits placed on it by the device profile.
      https://www.reddit.com/r/techsupport...hpad_software/
      Yes like it or not people to complain about Windows not providing enough options either. So windows does not allow you to make enough changes to fix touchpad issues either. Yes this is because you are stuck behind the limitations of the device profile that you cannot change and will not be changed by the vendor at all. Remember libinput you submit data on issue with a device profile new versions to come out fixing it.

      Charlie68 reality here Linux and Windows sux in different ways with input devices.
      1) Windows if the device profile in a input driver is wrong the vendor is 99.9% of the time never going to fix it. Why that driver that came with windows computer most likely no longer has a developer so is a completely dead not update able item. libinput we are lucky here is a device profile issue is fixable where windows users are stuck with broken device profiles and end up buying a new computer to fix. Yes needing to submit a bug report to fix your device is better than the Windows answer with device profile problems of go buy a new computer because there is no developer here to process you complaints or fix it.
      2) Window provides a few minor alteration options with GUI that are not enough to deal with major touch pad issues.
      So Windows does not display solution either.

      The reality here the proper fix requires someone who is a developer who can make decent GUI tools to join libinput. Then processed to take the diagnostic tools that libinput provides and make a GUI interface to profile the device including create custom profile. A tool like this has to exceed what Windows offers because the Windows offering presumes you have a base device maker profile to work on top of that on Linux you don't have in a lot of cases and the provided base profile with windows can be horrible wrong with no way to fix it.

      Yes who is going to pay or be that GUI developer to fix this problem properly.

      The reality lot of the stuff you are being asked to-do with libinput command line tools to fix a touch pad you have to-do so you have a profile of the device. GUI walking you though the process could in a few places could be done into mini games to make the process more fun and still collect the need data.

      Charlie68 the problem here is you have been very tunnel visioned when you step back look at input devices from a big picture point of view it does not matter if you look at Windows, Mac, Linux, Android... Its all broken just in different ways. No party at this stage has the complete fix. The complete fix will take serous resources that libinput is missing and will require a profile device tool as in all that debuging tool crud of libinput presenting in a user friendly way.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
        Being under resourced is a big problem.



        The reality here is hard. There are many surveys on what setting users change with windows. In university and business computer networks its important to know what setting changes you can in fact disable and users will not notice. The reality is 90% of users have to have a use able default settings because they are not going to change the mouse/touch pad settings.

        Hard fact just because Windows or any other OS provides a feature does not mean many users in fact use it. So out the box defaults on touchpads, mice. keyboards... have to be generically decent as majority of users need that as that the only setting they will be using.

        Windows does not allow you to change everything with input devices. The changes you make in Windows is already have limits placed on it by the device profile.
        https://www.reddit.com/r/techsupport...hpad_software/
        Yes like it or not people to complain about Windows not providing enough options either. So windows does not allow you to make enough changes to fix touchpad issues either. Yes this is because you are stuck behind the limitations of the device profile that you cannot change and will not be changed by the vendor at all. Remember libinput you submit data on issue with a device profile new versions to come out fixing it.

        Charlie68 reality here Linux and Windows sux in different ways with input devices.
        1) Windows if the device profile in a input driver is wrong the vendor is 99.9% of the time never going to fix it. Why that driver that came with windows computer most likely no longer has a developer so is a completely dead not update able item. libinput we are lucky here is a device profile issue is fixable where windows users are stuck with broken device profiles and end up buying a new computer to fix. Yes needing to submit a bug report to fix your device is better than the Windows answer with device profile problems of go buy a new computer because there is no developer here to process you complaints or fix it.
        2) Window provides a few minor alteration options with GUI that are not enough to deal with major touch pad issues.
        So Windows does not display solution either.

        The reality here the proper fix requires someone who is a developer who can make decent GUI tools to join libinput. Then processed to take the diagnostic tools that libinput provides and make a GUI interface to profile the device including create custom profile. A tool like this has to exceed what Windows offers because the Windows offering presumes you have a base device maker profile to work on top of that on Linux you don't have in a lot of cases and the provided base profile with windows can be horrible wrong with no way to fix it.

        Yes who is going to pay or be that GUI developer to fix this problem properly.

        The reality lot of the stuff you are being asked to-do with libinput command line tools to fix a touch pad you have to-do so you have a profile of the device. GUI walking you though the process could in a few places could be done into mini games to make the process more fun and still collect the need data.

        Charlie68 the problem here is you have been very tunnel visioned when you step back look at input devices from a big picture point of view it does not matter if you look at Windows, Mac, Linux, Android... Its all broken just in different ways. No party at this stage has the complete fix. The complete fix will take serous resources that libinput is missing and will require a profile device tool as in all that debuging tool crud of libinput presenting in a user friendly way.
        When from this :
        https://postimg.cc/gallery/Pv8GGLK
        you end up with this:
        https://postimg.cc/LnpycJtC
        ... it's regression.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
          When from this :
          https://postimg.cc/gallery/Pv8GGLK
          you end up with this:
          https://postimg.cc/LnpycJtC
          ... it's regression.
          Nothing is that straight forward. Yes libinput default there is displaying less features.

          There are a few important differences.
          synaptics not every feature displayed in those pictures in fact works with every touchpad you can use synaptics driver with. This is a problem why it happens Synaptics driver does not have a diagnostic tool to probe what the device offers. So you can be tweaking no operation scroll bars there attempting to fix a touch pad problem.

          Yes having to use the libinput diagnostic tool get the information to make quirk file to change lots of those setting that libinput is not displaying by default makes some sense.

          Really you think normal users without a lot of touch pad configuration experience what is the odds they are going to set all the synaptic driver setting right. That right basically zero. Its not really a regression when what was being provided before by synaptics was not really work right for most users.

          https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libi...debugging.html
          This above is just where the libinput developer is bad at making graphical GUI. He has made a command line tool that user interacts to assist user to get the correct values. So instead of guessing with a slider if the value is right have user interact with device to get correct values.

          The problem here the way we have configured touchpads and quite a few other devices need to change to interactive GUI configuration instead of the old static value configuration.

          Why is the libinput developer wanting you to install diagnostic tools to configure your touchpad is because the diagnostic tools he has made are interactive and give you the best chances of getting your starting values to adjust from right. Just a limitation of the libinput developer that is a command line tool developer person. We need someone with GUI development skill to pick up what he has done in the diagnostic tools and turn into a GUI application that nicely walks users though the process to get proper starting calibration values from interaction when they have touchpad/touch screen.... problems. Yes getting those proper starting values is not check boxes and sliders as how can these things ever give you any information how the device is really responding.

          I know it horrible. What is wrong with libinput is a GUI developer is missing to take the diagnostic tools and turn into user friendly GUI as the first starting point. It would technically be possible to make the calibration process of a touch-pad a game where the game is adjusting the values.

          You have called it a regression without taking a closer look at the libinput diagnostic tools that exist to set most of the values that are no longer displayed and how those tools are designed to get those values. How the diagnostic tools of libinput are designed to get the values that are not being displayed is vastly superior. The problem is how to get this better solution into end users hands in ways they will like and currently libinput project does not have the resources to-do this.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by kvuj View Post
            While I prefer GNOME (and wayland), I wish nothing but success to all of the KDE devs and happiness for their users. We should all rejoice on great development such as what they've been doing recently.

            The open source software world is too small to warrant hate based on preference.
            Ha, I'm already jumping most in this stupid fanboys crybaby sea, tech evolves, meanwhile fans...

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
              LightDM with the LightDM-KDE greeter which KDE used in the Plasma 4.x days.
              No, KDE newer used LightDM. Not during the Plasma 4.x days, or at any other time. During Plasma 4 they used KDM, as they have done for all releses unntil Plasma 5.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Morty View Post

                No, KDE newer used LightDM. Not during the Plasma 4.x days, or at any other time. During Plasma 4 they used KDM, as they have done for all releses unntil Plasma 5.
                Plasma uses SDDM.
                @oiaohm I want to clarify, that my complaints are because I want to use Wayland and are bothered by some problems I have and have many users. It is really a pity for example, seeing a user of Fedora Gnome that has an excellent wayland support, use the Xorg session for this reason. I'm trying to solve my problem, they are two days I'm looking for the way to solve it with debugging, however it seems that the tap-click is not supported, even if it works badly if the enabled. This is what I understand using the diagnostic tools. Strange because this notebook is native Linux and has a great Linux support, I had bought it precisely for this.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
                  @oiaohm I want to clarify, that my complaints are because I want to use Wayland and are bothered by some problems I have and have many users. It is really a pity for example, seeing a user of Fedora Gnome that has an excellent wayland support, use the Xorg session for this reason. I'm trying to solve my problem, they are two days I'm looking for the way to solve it with debugging, however it seems that the tap-click is not supported, even if it works badly if the enabled. This is what I understand using the diagnostic tools. Strange because this notebook is native Linux and has a great Linux support, I had bought it precisely for this.
                  https://man.archlinux.org/man/libinput.4
                  I noticed something the image of the dialog libinput is missing a important setting. Option "ClickMethod" "string". Touchpads internally need to be send the right message here so they do tap processing in the right areas. Please note the libinput lead developer does not make those dialogs. Yes it possible to change clickmethod with quirks as well. Do note clickmethod "none" on a tablet enabling tap to click does nothing same with other click options because the touch pad will not be processing clicks at all. This is why I say we need libinput configuration dialog to come a diagnostic tool that has in fact read the device configuration

                  Tap-click enabled does not have to equal enabled for the complete pad it can be just the button areas of the pad.

                  Yes if your touchpad does not have a proper profile with libinput it is totally possible you have the profile with clickmethod "none" so making all touch pad click options dead.

                  Remember the libinput developer did not make those dialog. Instead gnome kde.... developers are making the libinput control dialogs without working with the libinput developer to display what should be displayed as well. Yes making a static form dialog with no link to diagnostics is a lazy way to make those controls and screws users over.

                  Yes clickmethod is string because over time there may be needs to keep on adding more options here.

                  https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libi...l#click-method
                  The out the box default for clickmethod is button areas. So your touchpad has button areas you enable tap to click and you attempt to click in the main touch pad nothing happens because click is not processed there.

                  Now may pay to try libinput under X11 with clickmethod set to "clickfingers" If everything works fine with that we have clickmethod problem and a bug report against gnome/kde.... for not including a important setting.

                  Please note every setting on that libinput man page is what the lead developer of libinput thought was important and user should control. Yes early on with synaptics as well we had the GUI makes for Gnome and KDE not explosing the number of features they do now as well so that interface was historically broken as well. I lived though this stuff because I started with Linux in 1990s.

                  We really do need something who is a GUI developer to get working directly with upstream libinput. To make a good diagnostic GUI. This would also include the means todo every setting and show hey I have a problem its not libinput but its gnome/kde/... developer has made a broken interface as well.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

                    https://man.archlinux.org/man/libinput.4
                    I noticed something the image of the dialog libinput is missing a important setting. Option "ClickMethod" "string". Touchpads internally need to be send the right message here so they do tap processing in the right areas. Please note the libinput lead developer does not make those dialogs. Yes it possible to change clickmethod with quirks as well. Do note clickmethod "none" on a tablet enabling tap to click does nothing same with other click options because the touch pad will not be processing clicks at all. This is why I say we need libinput configuration dialog to come a diagnostic tool that has in fact read the device configuration

                    Tap-click enabled does not have to equal enabled for the complete pad it can be just the button areas of the pad.

                    Yes if your touchpad does not have a proper profile with libinput it is totally possible you have the profile with clickmethod "none" so making all touch pad click options dead.

                    Remember the libinput developer did not make those dialog. Instead gnome kde.... developers are making the libinput control dialogs without working with the libinput developer to display what should be displayed as well. Yes making a static form dialog with no link to diagnostics is a lazy way to make those controls and screws users over.

                    Yes clickmethod is string because over time there may be needs to keep on adding more options here.

                    https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libi...l#click-method
                    The out the box default for clickmethod is button areas. So your touchpad has button areas you enable tap to click and you attempt to click in the main touch pad nothing happens because click is not processed there.

                    Now may pay to try libinput under X11 with clickmethod set to "clickfingers" If everything works fine with that we have clickmethod problem and a bug report against gnome/kde.... for not including a important setting.

                    Please note every setting on that libinput man page is what the lead developer of libinput thought was important and user should control. Yes early on with synaptics as well we had the GUI makes for Gnome and KDE not explosing the number of features they do now as well so that interface was historically broken as well. I lived though this stuff because I started with Linux in 1990s.

                    We really do need something who is a GUI developer to get working directly with upstream libinput. To make a good diagnostic GUI. This would also include the means todo every setting and show hey I have a problem its not libinput but its gnome/kde/... developer has made a broken interface as well.
                    On my notebook I have both Tumbleweed gnome and Tumbleweed kde, I don't see many differences. Initially I thought it was because of the limited support of KDE to Wayland, but when I installed GNOME, I saw that the situation is similar, I don't have any more options.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
                      On my notebook I have both Tumbleweed gnome and Tumbleweed kde, I don't see many differences. Initially I thought it was because of the limited support of KDE to Wayland, but when I installed GNOME, I saw that the situation is similar, I don't have any more options.
                      Note its also been a problem with the GUI for libinput in X11 mode as well with KDE and Gnome not displaying all libinput settings. So not a just a wayland problem. Wayland makes you see it because you now have to use libinput.

                      Comment

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