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  • #31
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    The reality is there have been 2 different kernel ABI/API for touchpads and 3 drivers. evdev and libinput use the same interfaces with libinput using the most features. Synaptics driver uses a different kernel interface that turns out not be be sanely designed.

    libinput using quirks do you have quite a bit of control over touchpad in fact the libinput quirks gives you more control to correct problems than the synaptics driver gives. This of course means if libinput wrong the result can be massively wrong way more than the issues synaptics driver will give because libinput does give you more control.

    Yes using the synaptics driver is not really giving you full control over the device either.

    Sometimes it pays to be careful what you ask for. People asked for more control than synaptics to the development making libinput and he gave exactly that.
    Since you are so convinced, good luck, but I just point out that GUIs were born many years ago to make life easier for people. But that's okay ... when synaptics is no longer supported or when libinput is usable even by us humble users, I will change.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
      Since you are so convinced, good luck, but I just point out that GUIs were born many years ago to make life easier for people. But that's okay ... when synaptics is no longer supported or when libinput is usable even by us humble users, I will change.
      You did not get what I meant by being careful what you ask for.
      1) People ask for more control over a device this results in coding the GUI to give that more control is now more complex to make because you have more controls.
      2) Working out where you should store all those extra options is another level of complexity this has changed 3 times in libinput history.
      3) libinput is under active development so new features are being added.

      Humble users like you need to be aware that synaptics
      1) Has decent GUIs now because its development is dead and is really feature poor but when synaptics was under active development it was quite common to have no GUI like libinput now.
      2) That at some point synaptics will no longer be usable. That will either because we move to wayland or the Linux/BSD kernel kill synaptics interface. So synaptics on borrowed time.

      Maybe you want to be involved in the libinput process talking about what control features you want exposed and where. Maybe you want to do a quirk file for you device and submit it so out the box works decently with libinput. Remember the developer of libinput cannot own every version of a touch pad how can the libinput developer know that your model touchpad is problem if you don't report it.

      Like it or not this libinput problem is not a wayland only problem. libinput problems is down road for the X11 server on bare metal for all those still using synaptics as well if X11 server on bare metal remains in use long enough. The work around of synaptics driver with x.org on bare metal is not a forever solution fixing libinput so your touchpad works right is the forever solution.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

        You did not get what I meant by being careful what you ask for.
        1) People ask for more control over a device this results in coding the GUI to give that more control is now more complex to make because you have more controls.
        2) Working out where you should store all those extra options is another level of complexity this has changed 3 times in libinput history.
        3) libinput is under active development so new features are being added.

        Humble users like you need to be aware that synaptics
        1) Has decent GUIs now because its development is dead and is really feature poor but when synaptics was under active development it was quite common to have no GUI like libinput now.
        2) That at some point synaptics will no longer be usable. That will either because we move to wayland or the Linux/BSD kernel kill synaptics interface. So synaptics on borrowed time.

        Maybe you want to be involved in the libinput process talking about what control features you want exposed and where. Maybe you want to do a quirk file for you device and submit it so out the box works decently with libinput. Remember the developer of libinput cannot own every version of a touch pad how can the libinput developer know that your model touchpad is problem if you don't report it.

        Like it or not this libinput problem is not a wayland only problem. libinput problems is down road for the X11 server on bare metal for all those still using synaptics as well if X11 server on bare metal remains in use long enough. The work around of synaptics driver with x.org on bare metal is not a forever solution fixing libinput so your touchpad works right is the forever solution.
        I would say that this fully encompasses my thoughts.
        https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topi...input-drivers/

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
          I would say that this fully encompasses my thoughts.
          https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topi...input-drivers/
          There is a big mistake there that really important. "synaptics" driver is not only for synaptics branded touchpads is true but its also synaptics standard touchpads. synaptics use to hold a patent that is now expired any party who bought that patent agreed to make their touchpads to a particular quality and standard. Currently have the attack of the badly made clones. So there are touchpads that you can attempt to use the synaptic X11 driver with and end up in kernel panic hell.

          Lot of people have not noticed how many windows laptops have custom touchpad drivers what are fairly much just the same driver as all their other models with quirks/profile data for that model.

          The general setting you get with windows are already behind quirk/profile data. Something to wake up here that is big problem. People are buying lots laptops for Linux lots vendors don't submit anything to libinput. Remember in the time synaptics driver was in active development those companies who bought patents from synaptics was submitting profile data on the devices they were making back to synaptic this information did go to the developer making the driver for X11.

          Yes I know its horrible that end user has to install diagnostic tool and collect profile data. Let be realistic here the libinput developers don't have patents to demand the information for the device makers. So if they don't have end user run diagnostic tools how else are they going to get it as they cannot afford to go out and buy every one.

          This is some of the problem as well not understanding that there is a lot of problems here.

          I do think the diagnostic tool could be made more GUI. But setting up a touchpad that does not have a quirks/profile file is going to remain painful.

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          • #35
            On my KDE Debian, lininput is an installed dependency and synaptics is not installed. That's with default settings out of the box.
            So from my point of view synaptics is already off the screen if not installed manually.
            It also gave me problems inside virtual machines so (as an end-user) I'm not too sad about that direction, for me it just has to work.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post

              I would say that this fully encompasses my thoughts.
              https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topi...input-drivers/
              Please do note there is only 1 core developer
              https://github.com/wayland-project/l...s/contributors

              I am serous all the work of Libinput is 90%+ 1 developer that we can thank out lucky stars is funded by Redhat on one hand. On another hand enterprise deployments unique mouse/trackpad configuration per user is not ideal either.

              For such a important thing synaptics has no developer. The backend library that evdev depends on in X11 x.org bare metal is also 90% the work of the same developer Peter Hutterer.

              Can you now see why Libinput does not have a decent GUI. Simple reality with the number of devices libinput supports for single developer there is no enough hours in the day for that developer to go make a proper GUI for libinput. There is not even enough hours in the day todo all the device support work need.

              Please note Peter Hutterer is not qualified in UX/GUI design either. So libinput getting a decent UI/GUI really requires a new developer.

              If this was like the Linux kernel you would be expecting you look at the contributors and you would be seeing dell/hp.... all the different laptop vendors with touch pads there with a developer providing assistance so Linux worked well on their hardware. Guess what they are not there.

              We should be thankful that libinput is as good as what it is with how under resourced the project is. Yes in the past you got spoiled rotten by a well funded project that was the synaptics driver.

              Yes the lead developer saying he has to restrict features because he does not have the means to test it this was a smoke signal about being under resourced.

              Please note I am not saying libinput cannot be better. But we have to be real here libinput project is serous-ally lacking resources. And the synaptics driver is critically lacking resources to the point its going to come non functional.

              Comment


              • #37
                hmm, interesting, I only use libinput on a few machines > Kbuntu 20.04 + our optimizations and it works very well - an example from Lenovo 720s-IKB [14" + MX150]:

                https://www.dropbox.com/s/i35mxahc47...90643.png?dl=0
                Last edited by ext73; 21 March 2021, 04:11 AM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Ok, but we do not compare to Windows, where thanks to a gui you can configure it as you want.
                  I'm not saying libinput has bad configuration on all devices, but it's just this stupid idea that needs to work with default settings that doesn't make sense.
                  Because each of us has their own preferences, especially on a toucphad where the sensitivity changes from person to person. To think that there is a method to standardize everything is just stupid.
                  It is not a question of how many people are working on libinput, but it is the very basic idea that is wrong.
                  My God ! We are in 2021, we are full of useless DE with special effects and still asking people to debug and diagnose to optimize a touchpad?
                  The problem is that they don't want to do it and not because there is no one who can do it, but because they say, the less complicated it is the less bugs there will be and the less work to maintain it.
                  This is just unacceptable and reminds me a lot of the logic behind a particular DE.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
                    I'm not saying libinput has bad configuration on all devices, but it's just this stupid idea that needs to work with default settings that doesn't make sense..
                    This is kind of a mistake. If you survey MS windows and Mac OS users 90%+ of them have never touched mouse/touchpad settings and don't even know where it is.

                    Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
                    Because each of us has their own preferences, especially on a toucphad where the sensitivity changes from person to person. To think that there is a method to standardize everything is just stupid.
                    This is not true. The reality is majority of users don't care as long as its in the ball park its good enough they don't change the sensitivity to suite them.

                    Out the box experience is important for 90%+ of users. Yes you are in the less than 10% of users who care and want to adjust mouse and pointer setting at all.

                    Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
                    It is not a question of how many people are working on libinput, but it is the very basic idea that is wrong.
                    How under resourced is a fact. This does effect how much the developer has to focus on market share and what is possible.

                    Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
                    My God ! We are in 2021, we are full of useless DE with special effects and still asking people to debug and diagnose to optimize a touchpad?
                    Yes for touchpads that libinput does not in fact have profile for this is required. You will notice quite a few users with particular brands say libinput is decent out the box because the vendor did the profiling for them but this is only 3 brands of laptops.

                    Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
                    The problem is that they don't want to do it and not because there is no one who can do it, but because they say, the less complicated it is the less bugs there will be and the less work to maintain it.
                    This is you miss reading the statement. There is not enough resources so now the lead maintainer has to optimise. Less complicated, Less bugs and suites 90% of users to be that way and fits with the amount of resources libinput has.

                    The reality you want more to handle more complicated with more work to maintain it you need more developers.

                    The reality is they don't want to do it arguement has you failing to step back look at the big picture see that you are in the minority and the developer is under resourced so has to make hard choices. Just like libinput does not come with a decent GUI program as part of libinput this is resources. Think about it what is the point about giving users mouse curve control if they don't have a good GUI to set it valves and diagnose if it right. Lack of GUI developer has knock on effects.

                    The reality here you are trying to get 1L of water out of a cup of water. If the resources as in developers are not in a project to fully develop everything out the lead developer has to make hard choices unfortunately this normally end up in the majority case winning. With input device the majority case is users don't customise . Also the majority of users who do customise do have the skill to profile a device. That misses about 1 percent who are screwed. The lead developer is screwed by lack of resources so way to get extra resources is use the ones with the skills to profile devices at cost of 1 percent of the market and making 90%+ of users happy.

                    Project under resourced does not make a nice project to deal with all the time.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                      This is kind of a mistake. If you survey MS windows and Mac OS users 90%+ of them have never touched mouse/touchpad settings and don't even know where it is.


                      This is not true. The reality is majority of users don't care as long as its in the ball park its good enough they don't change the sensitivity to suite them.

                      Out the box experience is important for 90%+ of users. Yes you are in the less than 10% of users who care and want to adjust mouse and pointer setting at all.


                      How under resourced is a fact. This does effect how much the developer has to focus on market share and what is possible.


                      Yes for touchpads that libinput does not in fact have profile for this is required. You will notice quite a few users with particular brands say libinput is decent out the box because the vendor did the profiling for them but this is only 3 brands of laptops.


                      This is you miss reading the statement. There is not enough resources so now the lead maintainer has to optimise. Less complicated, Less bugs and suites 90% of users to be that way and fits with the amount of resources libinput has.

                      The reality you want more to handle more complicated with more work to maintain it you need more developers.

                      The reality is they don't want to do it arguement has you failing to step back look at the big picture see that you are in the minority and the developer is under resourced so has to make hard choices. Just like libinput does not come with a decent GUI program as part of libinput this is resources. Think about it what is the point about giving users mouse curve control if they don't have a good GUI to set it valves and diagnose if it right. Lack of GUI developer has knock on effects.

                      The reality here you are trying to get 1L of water out of a cup of water. If the resources as in developers are not in a project to fully develop everything out the lead developer has to make hard choices unfortunately this normally end up in the majority case winning. With input device the majority case is users don't customise . Also the majority of users who do customise do have the skill to profile a device. That misses about 1 percent who are screwed. The lead developer is screwed by lack of resources so way to get extra resources is use the ones with the skills to profile devices at cost of 1 percent of the market and making 90%+ of users happy.

                      Project under resourced does not make a nice project to deal with all the time.
                      This explains the state of Linux on the desktop!
                      This is kind of a mistake. If you survey MS windows and Mac OS users 90%+ of them have never touched mouse/touchpad settings and don't even know where it is.
                      Who says this?
                      Windows allows you to make changes, you don't have to be a computer guru to do it.
                      Nobody has the truth in their pocket, there are users who modify it, others who are comfortable with the default settings.

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