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Canonical Continues To Talk Up Google's Flutter UI Toolkit

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  • #71
    Originally posted by cynical View Post

    Actually web gui programming is way ahead of almost everything in the desktop world, which mostly sticks to the same OO paradigm its always had. Android is finally trying to do declarative UI with jetpack compose, but most are stuck in the past. There’s a reason people stopped doing desktop applications and migrated to the web. It’s because for the most part the web platform is superior.
    lol, web technology is the one stuck way in the past. Desktop toolkits never made the mistake that web technologies did of separating the elements from how they're displayed, and declarative toolkit files well predated the insanity of web apps. Both GTK and Qt had XML descriptions of widgets that could be dynamically loaded back when XML was the big thing, and Microsoft created XAML and WPF taking the XML declarative concept further, and then Qt went "You know what fuck XML let's use JSON" and then built a better XAML as QML. At the end of the day however none of this really have had anything to do with the Web and Desktop toolkits have been superior to the web the entire time. Why? Widgets and Layouts.

    In a desktop toolkit the elements actually mean something and can be used in composable, reusable ways and they're laid out programmatically rather than having to deal with things like text overflowing outside a box because it can't constrain it.

    The reason we're seeing everything going to web tech is because we now have a bunch of kids who only know web technologies as a hammer and think everything looks like nails.


    • #72
      Forget Canonical!
      They've shoot themselves in the foot many times before!
      The thing is how is "someone" still betting on "Google things"?!

      "Google" is a big "stay-away" sign, if you ask me...

      In a few months they'll be forcing you to agree to telemetry that reports how many times you go to the toilet so that they promote "fresh sprays" in your Android mobile.

      Google products? No thank you!


      • #73
        Originally posted by Mavman View Post
        In a few months they'll be forcing you to agree to telemetry (...)
        It may happen sooner than expected, given that most Flutter courses urge developers to find excuses to embed Google's prying eyes (Firebase) in their mobile applications.

        Flutter also enables "analytics reporting" by default, yet at least they inform the developer the command to (hopefully) disable them.


        • #74
          Originally posted by old_skull View Post
          What an amazing thread. The combination of arrogance and ignorance on display here are simply staggering. Who needs "web technologies" when you can easily build complex GUIs using good ol C++, even assembly for the real pros...

          Your ad hominem at the channel is disheartening at best, hypocritical in fact, because you've decided without consideration, which is the definition of arrogance.

          Consider this: Every desktop is going to have a browser, with web tech, almost certainly open at all times. So if it was implemented in a reusable way it would actually be elegant, efficient, readable, accessible to a broad spectrum of users.

          That browser is going to have UI elements. Apps and sites are going to develop their own custom UI elements. Therefore having custom web-tech UI elements for the desktop's platform UI isn't adding anything new to the desktop... actually having the spectrum of C/C++-developed UI libraries would then be the bloat. We already have a dozen flavours of GTK , QT, FLTK, wxWindows, and more loaded at any one time because on the desktop there is no standard UI toolkit. Just accept it.

          Instead of directing your hate at the technology, direct it towards advocating for more thoughtful usage. That would actually benefit people. Hating on people without taking a moment to think makes you the problem not the solution.


          • #75
            Time to finally ditch Ubuntu I guess. How will this affect the many Ubuntu offsprings like Kubuntu? Any idea?


            • #76
              These posts explain what GTK devs are planning for GTK, not why Flutter is better than GTK. Rendering performance can obviously be improved just like any code, but overall it isn't a deciding factor with regular desktop apps, maybe 1 % of the total CPU load.


              • #77
                According to the Flutter linux install instructions, you need to have the GTK headers installed, somewhat suggesting that flutter is using GTK to render iit's UI. So not a web UI.


                • #78
                  Originally posted by waitman View Post

                  maybe? 'platforms that matter' is subjective I suppose. Tk is way more 'truly' cross-platform, relatively . AFAIK Flutter isn't 'truly' cross-platform.
                  Cross-platform means supporting more than one and/or having technical basis for potentially supporting more OSes in the future, it doesn't mean that every single OS in the world must be supported.
                  Last edited by curfew; 21 March 2021, 01:22 AM.


                  • #79
                    Originally posted by sheldonl View Post
                    According to the Flutter linux install instructions, you need to have the GTK headers installed, somewhat suggesting that flutter is using GTK to render iit's UI. So not a web UI.
                    So running the app inside a web renderer on a GTK host window somehow makes the UI "not web"? Basing the application window on a third-party toolkit provides free window system (X11/Wayland) support as well as a foundation for integrating to e.g. multimedia frameworks and system bus (D-bus).
                    Last edited by curfew; 21 March 2021, 01:27 AM.


                    • #80
                      Originally posted by computerquip View Post
                      You really might as well treat anything with [Canonical's] ridiculous CLA as proprietary software because it can change its stance at any point in time, regardless of how many contributions you've made as an individual or a community.
                      If you oppose CLAs, there's likely nothing I can say to change your mind. And so I won't try. But just to clarify, even if Canonical were to exercise its rights under the CLA and remove the GPL license (which I don't see happening), everything released under GLP before such a change would remain remain forever released under GPL. That is, anyone could step in and continue developing a fork of the previous GPL project under GPL.

                      Originally posted by computerquip View Post
                      If Sun had [required a CLA] with Solaris or ZFS, both of those would be absolutely gone. We wouldn't have OpenZFS or Illumos right now.
                      Regarding ZFS, if Sun [an later Oracle] had required a CLA for contributions to ZFS, Sun [and later Oracle] would have had the authority to change the license from CDDL to GPL. That is, the absence of a CLA limits the authority to re-license ZFS under GPL.