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The Last Minute GNOME Shell + Mutter 40 Release Candidate Changes

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  • #21
    Originally posted by omer666 View Post
    Very Long, Still Read.
    ​​​​​
    On the other side of the spectrum, you forget to mention the ones living in their Care Bears world, full of rainbows, butterflies and unicorns.
    The ones lost in the Gnome world so deep they seem in ecstasy at every news and forget to look around and see the clandestine dump around the corner, a bit of a gloomy industrial area, some petrol leaking in a river. Things other see as very obvious.
    Is that what you want? To deny that some criticism is very well acceptable? Because it is based on actual disappointments over the dismissal of feedback from Gnome devs and the lack of options or user-centric good practices? Or will you just consider it alright if we accept to live in their (your?) boring and yet intolerant world?

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    • #22
      Originally posted by omer666 View Post
      There is also the traditional retrograde view "Windows does it better", "what's this Apple-inspired pile of crap"... Only to tell us sooner or later "user experience on macOS is so much better, no wonder the year of Linux desktop never happened..."​​​​​
      Why should comparisons be retrograde?
      IMHO everybody should copy everything worth copying.
      If Windows does something better, let's shamelessly copy it!

      Case in point, the new Activities Overview in Gnome 40 is basically Mission Control. It even uses the same gestures. But it's pretty nice, so who cares?!
      JackLilhammers
      Senior Member
      Last edited by JackLilhammers; 16 March 2021, 08:59 PM.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Mez' View Post
        On the other side of the spectrum, you forget to mention the ones living in their Care Bears world, full of rainbows, butterflies and unicorns.
        The ones lost in the Gnome world so deep they seem in ecstasy at every news and forget to look around and see the clandestine dump around the corner, a bit of a gloomy industrial area, some petrol leaking in a river. Things other see as very obvious.
        Is that what you want? To deny that some criticism is very well acceptable? Because it is based on actual disappointments over the dismissal of feedback from Gnome devs and the lack of options or user-centric good practices? Or will you just consider it alright if we accept to live in their (your?) boring and yet intolerant world?
        Basically Gnome3 is not what people expect from a traditional desktop environment, the Gnome people have stepped away from that. They designed the UI paradigms in a new way. You might like that way, I do, maybe you don't like it, you do. Thats fair. Anyway, and this is important: what they do isn't wrong or right, it's different at first and foremost. And whenever people try to convince them to go back in the old ways because of "thats what people expect!" and the gnome guys deny it, thats not wrong either. It's just different. And in my opinion: that way I got a very usable, fast and efficient desktop.

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        • #24
          Whenever we talk about DE, the usual fan boys arrive .., how boring you are! Hurray for diversity and I am happy that Gnome exists and goes on, as I am happy that KDE exists and goes on ... everyone will then use what they prefer or both! Because neither Gnome nor KDE are religions, but only graphical interfaces. Grow up ...

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          • #25
            Originally posted by Hibbelharry View Post

            Basically Gnome3 is not what people expect from a traditional desktop environment, the Gnome people have stepped away from that. They designed the UI paradigms in a new way. You might like that way, I do, maybe you don't like it, you do. Thats fair. Anyway, and this is important: what they do isn't wrong or right, it's different at first and foremost. And whenever people try to convince them to go back in the old ways because of "thats what people expect!" and the gnome guys deny it, thats not wrong either. It's just different. And in my opinion: that way I got a very usable, fast and efficient desktop.
            The assumption that if people don't like Gnome they don't like the paradigm (as in "they like the old ways") is a biased shortcut. Too often, the paradigm and the implementation of it by Gnome are mixed up in here.

            I like the paradigm, but their implementation of that paradigm is too much of a cul-de-sac for me. There are no side streets or exits to decide your own preferred path. I don't like others to decide what's best for me. They have no clue on an individual level.

            I've never asked (personally) for them to take a step aside from what they've designed on a global level. Or to change the default experience. And I've never said anyone was wrong (since I'm all for "different strokes for different folks").

            What I've always asked is for them to take responsibility a bit more, to pay specific attention to user feedback and as a corollary to look into supporting some basic features as options, especially when there's a common pattern. To offer more flexibility than the rigid monolith it is. I'm not talking about satisfying every single request, just the few more popular or most obvious, e.g. setting the clock on the damn right of the panel, moving the OSD in one of the 4 corners, having user themes enabled by default ("integrated", not "extended"). Or learn a thing or two from the hugely popular extensions. Instead of dismissing them entirely from the back of their hand.
            If you look into the Gnome 40 topics for the last few months, it's obvious users have a different view about the alignment of workspaces. I have no interest in that discussion as I barely use the shell itself or workspaces, but if people are very ambivalent about it, there's your feedback for an option. The code for horizontal is probably a bigger change than adapting what existed previously (even with the change to GTK 4), just double the fun by letting people pick with limited extra work and half the roar is just gone. It doesn't have to turn into KDE, just a limited set of options for upsetting stuff (feedback gives you material for that), with maintainability in mind (their time is limited, we all get that).
            Only a few things, no changes on your vanilla Gnome experience, but increased overall satisfaction, more users feeling loved, less backlash. Win-win.
            Mez'
            Senior Member
            Last edited by Mez'; 16 March 2021, 08:58 PM.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Hibbelharry View Post
              Anyway, and this is important: what they do isn't wrong or right, it's different at first and foremost.
              That's debatable at least. Sometimes different can be good, other bad, and sometimes abysmal.
              Windows 8 Metro UI was different and was wrong. Apple's single button mouse was different and was wrong. etc

              Originally posted by Hibbelharry View Post
              And whenever people try to convince them to go back in the old ways because of "thats what people expect!" and the gnome guys deny it, thats not wrong either. It's just different.
              What people expect is usually more important than what's supposedly best.

              Familiarity is a key principle in UX design.

              Disregarding user feedback and requests to keep a more familiar approach along with the new one is bad design.
              The best way to drive their decision process would to use a data driven approace and add some anonymous telemetry.
              Track the most used settings and extensions and develop the desktop accordingly, maybe embedding them.

              The data collected should be available on the official repository and imho the whole ecosystem would be more open.

              PS: About familiarity, I had to discard Ubuntu for a work project because my colleagues couldn't use Gnome
              JackLilhammers
              Senior Member
              Last edited by JackLilhammers; 16 March 2021, 09:29 PM.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by JackLilhammers View Post
                Familiarity is a key principle in UX design.
                No.

                If that were the case, you would not have written your message and you would not even be seeing this message.

                The sense of familiarity goes against evolution. Do you think you would have the technology and UX you have because of Familiarity?

                Intuitiveness is a key principle in UX design.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by JackLilhammers View Post
                  That's debatable at least. Sometimes different can be good, other bad, and sometimes abysmal.
                  Windows 8 Metro UI was different and was wrong. Apple's single button mouse was different and was wrong. etc
                  Windows 8 8 Metro UI was made for synergy with mobile in mind and it showed. Apple's single mouse button method is well alive on touchpad without physical buttons found on laptops. We can continue debating without progress as the world keeps on going and changing.

                  Familiarity is a key principle in UX design.
                  Familiarity is hardly a requirement especially for new users including those who never touched a device in their life.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by finalzone View Post
                    Windows 8 8 Metro UI was made for synergy with mobile in mind and it showed. Apple's single mouse button method is well alive on touchpad without physical buttons found on laptops. We can continue debating without progress as the world keeps on going and changing.
                    They've been supporting more than one button on touchpads for ages with multifinger clicks.

                    Originally posted by finalzone View Post
                    Familiarity is hardly a requirement especially for new users including those who never touched a device in their life.
                    Which are so common today...

                    Excluding Android, the average user comes to Linux after trying other operating systems.
                    Of course one could argue that Android can't be excluded and that Linux should follow that design.
                    Curiously enough, Gnome with only dash to panel is not that different than Chrome OS.
                    JackLilhammers
                    Senior Member
                    Last edited by JackLilhammers; 20 March 2021, 06:23 PM.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Yofiel View Post
                      The sense of familiarity goes against evolution. Do you think you would have the technology and UX you have because of Familiarity?

                      Intuitiveness is a key principle in UX design.
                      No, it doesn't.
                      They go hand in hand.

                      Revolutionary is the opposite of familiar, but one doesn't exclude the other. It's a trade-off.

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