Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

LibreOffice 7.0 Released As The Open-Source, Vulkan-Accelerated Office Suite

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    Originally posted by wizard69 View Post

    The problem is to get developers to leave the infrastructure behind that they are familiar with. It is like trying to get a Python programmer to switch languages, there are few languages that can match that infrastructure. The problem then becomes how to convince programmers to choose alternatives to help actually build the infrastructure up for those languages. C++ is a perfect example of a language that leaves a lot to be desired yet will not be dropped anytime soon because of the existing infrastructure.
    Not really. Libreoffice uses UNO (object broker), so if anyone bothered to write a Rust binding for that, new code for LibO could be written in Rust or old code could be gradually ported.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Spooktra View Post

      This is the opinion of a madman, someone that writes zero, if any code.

      FORTRAN is still the gold standard for scientific work, COBOL is in certain business respects invaluable, VB, as much as it disgusts me to say, is very useful in certain environments.
      All of which have aged to the point that people are seeking modern languages to replace them. Many want to see Julia replace FORTRAN for example. I have no idea what is happening in the COBOL world but have to imagine something is up in that domain. As for the world of app development we have more options than can be keep track of to replace VB.
      C is great for low level stuff, like writing drivers or kernel code, or when you want to couple it with inline assembler, but it's not the end all of programming languages. If it was, then there wouldn't have been any need to create any other language.
      Which is why being open minded about developing languages is important. There is no doubt in my mind that C/C++ need to be replaced for app development. The question then becomes with what! It is easy to say what should NOT be replacing C/C++ and Java and JavaScript are right at the top of the no way list. My biggest concern is that a move to something new should mean a language that will have or has, strong adoption.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by Veto View Post
        So dependency on a huge crappy runtime is not a technical argument? Well, you can define your way around it all day, but it is the major problem with Java.
        Blatantly false. Since Java9 the runtime has been modularized, so that you can ship with only the parts you use.

        Originally posted by Veto View Post
        • On Windows the JRE is basically synonymous with Oracles JRE, which makes you agree to be extorted by Oracles lawyers and sales people. When installed you have yet another program running all the time in the background and maybe even installing some browser toolbar or whatnot.
        • On Linux it is easy to install OpenJDK but difficult to get the Java programs to even work, because they often require a slightly different version or just only work with the Oracle version. Then see above...
        • On MacOS... probably some combination of above..
        Oh, and Oracle has even shown the will to go to SCOTUS to milk the use of the Java API outside the Oracle JRE, making the use of OpenJDK a risky affair - even though it is GPL licensed.

        Java - Write once, problems everywhere...
        Oracle JDK is not synonymous with anything, it's down to 34% market share (and declining, mostly thanks to Oracle's shenanigans): https://snyk.io/wp-content/uploads/jvm_2020.pdf
        OpenJDK/JRE and Oracle's do not differ technically since Java 11.

        Whatever hate you may have for Java, you need to bring it into 2020.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by gnulinux82

          What a stupid question.
          Remember, there are no stupid questions; just stupid people.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by bug77 View Post
            Blatantly false. Since Java9 the runtime has been modularized, so that you can ship with only the parts you use.
            OK, this is new to me. Then why do we still have many applications (including LibreOffice...) still requesting users to install a runtime?

            Originally posted by bug77 View Post
            Oracle JDK is not synonymous with anything, it's down to 34% market share (and declining, mostly thanks to Oracle's shenanigans): https://snyk.io/wp-content/uploads/jvm_2020.pdf
            OpenJDK/JRE and Oracle's do not differ technically since Java 11.
            Great. Then what about older applications? Can I then install Oracle JRE 8 alongside OpenJDK 11 and have it just workTM?

            Originally posted by bug77 View Post
            Whatever hate you may have for Java, you need to bring it into 2020.
            Java may have become the greatest language ever (and likely is on a controlled server-side environment), but as long as application users still have to endure the pain of being reminded all the time they are using a Java based application and struggling to make it work, it is probably not ME who has to do something
            Last edited by Veto; 08-05-2020, 05:53 PM.

            Comment


            • #46
              Agree with Veto here. For an example of how broken java is on desktop linux,
              especially for sound try getting a popular chess client, jin. to work .
              Distros like Debian have upgraded to java 11 or higher. Jin only works with openjdk 8
              or Oracle java 8 which is not easily available anymore. Downgrading to openjdk 8 on those distros usually gets you weird sound issues. On Gnome based distros like Ubuntu and elementary you get accessibility class errors, which are easy to fix. Only a pure distro like voidlinux gets it right.
              A terrible experience for any switcher to linux.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Veto View Post
                OK, this is new to me. Then why do we still have many applications (including LibreOffice...) still requesting users to install a runtime?
                Because apps are packaged the old way. Not exactly Java's fault, just people not updating their packaging methods.

                Originally posted by Veto View Post
                Great. Then what about older applications? Can I then install Oracle JRE 8 alongside OpenJDK 11 and have it just workTM?
                Always could, always will be able to do so.

                Originally posted by Veto View Post
                Java may have become the greatest language ever (and likely is on a controlled server-side environment), but as long as application users still have to endure the pain of being reminded all the time they are using a Java based application and struggling to make it work, it is probably not ME who has to do something
                Java isn't the greatest language ever (by a long shot), but it's good enough for this particular purpose.
                Whatever pains you have suffered using Java application were probably self-inflicted. I'm using IntelliJ Idea on a daily basis and have encountered none of the problems you list. And that's just the app I use most often.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by krell View Post
                  Agree with Veto here. For an example of how broken java is on desktop linux,
                  especially for sound try getting a popular chess client, jin. to work .
                  Distros like Debian have upgraded to java 11 or higher. Jin only works with openjdk 8
                  or Oracle java 8 which is not easily available anymore. Downgrading to openjdk 8 on those distros usually gets you weird sound issues. On Gnome based distros like Ubuntu and elementary you get accessibility class errors, which are easy to fix. Only a pure distro like voidlinux gets it right.
                  A terrible experience for any switcher to linux.
                  You do realize you're mostly complaining about a broken installer here, not Java.
                  Whatever dependencies a package may have, it's supposed to declare it, so it can be installed automatically when needed.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by bug77 View Post
                    Whatever pains you have suffered using Java application were probably self-inflicted. I'm using IntelliJ Idea on a daily basis and have encountered none of the problems you list. And that's just the app I use most often.
                    Well, if everything fails - blame the user! Stupid users!

                    OK, a Java IDE should probably at least get it right. Just downloaded it and tried it out. Sure enough seems to use its own bundled JBR-11 It also threw 4 errors at first startup and emits a 'deprecated' warning , but otherwise seems to run OK.

                    Maybe in the future the stupid users can run Java applications like any other application.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by caligula View Post
                      So far the only argument I've seen is that you think JDK is bloated. But is it? Personally I don't like the JDKs but can't think of any better. I mean, GTk/QT/Mono/Electron seem to have similar level of bloat or bring their own issues especially with cross-platform support.
                      Seriously? I find Java to be WAY BEYOND, out in it's own class of pure bloatiness compared to Gtk or even Qt. I mean seriously, Java "solved" memory leakage by simply taking up ALL of the memory in a computer and saying "well, we'll garbage collect unused memory when we (apps running under the Java JRE) need some free memory..." That's totally retarded!!

                      Gtk is probably the least bloated toolkit ever (aside from toy toolkits that don't amount to much, like Fltk, etc). Not seeing much issue with cross-platform support here, as Gimp has been working fine on all of the platforms I've used (x86 Linux, Windows, Raspberry Pi, etc).

                      Qt is pretty tight, if you ignore all the heft brought in by the Chromium based Web Engine component.

                      Qt is probably the best at cross platform support, far better than Java. I run into plenty of Java apps that don't run on my Raspberry Pi (Android Studio, Microchip MPLAB X, etc), while every Qt app I've run into can be compiled and run without a hitch. I've even ported a lot of Qt apps to Android without much trouble (UI's generally need a little tweaking to work sensibly with the touchscreen/keyboardless computer concept).

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X