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KDE Plasma 5.20 To Bring Working Screen Recording / Screencasting On Wayland
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Originally posted by intelfx
Like it should be.
KDE is a giant minefield and a UI/UX clusterfuck. It's a badly written tech demo. Which is sad, because the underlying technology (Qt) is all-around wonderful and a pure joy to write against.
(Source: am past KDE user, minor contributor and C++/Qt developer.)
But it's because I know stuff that works for others doesn't work for me (and vice-versa) that I don't talk Gnome down.Last edited by bug77; 26 July 2020, 06:32 PM.
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Originally posted by Brane215 View Post
Problem with lethal attacks is that _unknown_ ones tend to kill you.
Besides, without even looking around for examples, I know that your statement is cr*p.
X11 is mini-OS in itself, without any concept of safety separation.
Of all the benefits Wayland may bring, security is at the very bottom of my list.
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Originally posted by intelfx
Like it should be.
KDE is a giant minefield and a UI/UX clusterfuck. It's a badly written tech demo. Which is sad, because the underlying technology (Qt) is all-around wonderful and a pure joy to write against.
(Source: am past KDE user, minor contributor and C++/Qt developer.)
The Home Screen? Crappy version of what Android does. Not much better than enabling the hacky multitasking and windows options on some Android devices.
The App Drawer? Exactly what Android does; only with a lot more wasted space.
It even has a crappy hot corner for the Recent Apps screen...So does Plasma and I disable that too because I don't need that screen when I have a functional taskbar.
Even the GNOME focused distributions are having this trend where they are switching to sandboxed programs that are from a centralized repository (Flats and Snaps) which is closer to what Android offers when compared to a traditional Linux package manager like Apt, Dnf, or Pacman. While some KDE programs are going that way, at least Discover and pkcon don't force a person into using Snaps like on Ubuntu.
But between Ubuntu + Snaps and Fedora Silverblue + Flatpak, I'm sure there are others, but two of the biggest GNOME players changing to "centralized app repositories that runs in a local sandbox", just like what Android does, really doesn't help with the GNOME is an Android Clone argument.
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Originally posted by skeevy420 View PostAnd GNOME is a crappy attempt at an Android clone..
Originally posted by skeevy420 View PostEven the GNOME focused distributions are having this trend where they are switching to sandboxed programs that are from a centralized repository (Flats and Snaps) which is closer to what Android offers when compared to a traditional Linux package manager like Apt, Dnf, or Pacman. While some KDE programs are going that way, at least Discover and pkcon don't force a person into using Snaps like on Ubuntu.
Android is running applications per individual user. This is not how flatpak or snap does it. Flatpak and Snap is closer to how OS X DMG files do it. Yes Snap using loopback files to mount is really close to how OS X DMG files do it they are also loopback mounts.
Also traditional package managers get questionable to say the least as the Linux world has developed a lot of different package managers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NixOS Nix OS is from 2003 this is 5 years before android and does have a lot in common with how flatpak ostree does things.
Centralised repository with third party repository support applies equally to what you call traditional package managers and flatpak. Third party repositories it possible with Android so at this point everything is looking close. Snaps is a very different different issue will get to latter on..
There are two major repositories of flatpaks and they are done in two different ways.
The fedora flatpak repository is flatpak remote-add fedora oci+https://registry.fedoraproject.org note the oci bit. That open container image format.
and flathub is ostree repository done by flatpak-manager. Anyone just like the other package managers of history to setup their own repos with flatpak.
Of course flatpak project provides all the instructions if you wish to setup either repo type as your own private flatpak repo at no cost.
Snap on the other hand that is fully controlled repo where you will end up screwed.
That’s very good to hear. I would suggest a more official announcement could make inroads into the goal of a universal Linux store. I won’t lie, is disheartening to learn of Ubuntu derivatives choosing flatpack over Snaps.
Yes 2017 starts with a half assed promise that Distributions could decide to run their own snap repository by custom patching snapd coming forward to-day where it pay 15K a year for your own private space on Canonical servers. This makes Android store look cheap. So snap and flatpak really are very different beasts.
Yes snaps are basically centralised repository with no third party support. Please note even with Android you can use f-droid to install android APK files built by a independent third party to google. Snaps are hell load closer to IOS appstore. I would not compare snaps to Android that the wrong impression Snaps are horrible comparable to the IOS app-store system. There is a lot of horrible stuff coming from apple into the Linux world.
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Originally posted by oiaohm View PostI would not be so smug with the (and other data query). You should have stopped at screen recording. Lets go into the other data query region.
Why do we have AT-SPI2 running by dbus. Because X11 protocol is in fact unable to transfer all the data accessibility applications need to function that why AT-SPI2 exists. So accessibility application needing screen-capture has need to support two system interfaced protocols dbus and x11. The new way wayland solutions need is doing screen capture is like AT-SPI2 that it will work under X11 and Wayland by dbus this now reduces accessibility applications to 1 protocol dbus.
Originally posted by oiaohm View PostYes wayland protocol makes it impossible to screen record so forcing development of a dbus side protocol that permission system to access. Lot of ways this is the right thing.
Originally posted by oiaohm View PostI know moving all data queries people want to perform on-top of dbus instead of X11 means upsetting their code.
Originally posted by oiaohm View PostPlease note those using X11 to screen capture could be screwed over as well if people started using X11 securely. Xephyr and Xnest have you ever though why they they exist. That right you have not be able to screen capture correctly when X11 applications have been sandboxed either. Securish versions of X11 have not been that popular either think they end up running each application in like Xnest/Xephr so they cannot do a complete screen capture only access windows the application created itself. So the wayland problems in fact exist under secure versions of X11 as well. So none of the problems Wayland is causing are new in fact all existed over a 2 decade before Wayland was even a idea with secure versions of X11 servers.
Originally posted by oiaohm View PostDo we want our general desktop to be a secure designed desktop. I would say yes. Wayland is causing some issues that have been ignored for 2 decades to be now be fixed.
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Originally posted by oiaohm View PostWrong platform. Gnome design choices go after Apple not Android in a lot of ways.
We don't need to quote all that.
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Originally posted by tildearrow View PostWhile AT-SPI2 looks like the solution. The problem is that it looks very tied to GNOME. But this is to be expected considering GNOME is pretty much the gold standard implementation of the Wayland protocol. This is why GNOME is more stable. Wayland was made by them for them. And that will be the case for all eternity. The problem is KDE XFCE LXDE LXQt Sway all the other desktops exist. Like it or not they do and using a GNOME protocol for it is odd. Yes they have been trying to move the protocol to FreeDesktop. Which is a good thing. However I feel there are a few things tied to GNOME there. Read the page. There are GNOME links. Come on.
This is walking though debian to run it on. KDE LXQt and Sway you can turn AT-SPI2 support on by the Qt toolkit. XFCE can have it turns on just has a different on switch to gnome.
Really tildearrow you need top drop this gnome only stupidly over AT-SPI2. The reality is these days that text you see rendered on screen in X11 by the X11 server is a rendered image. The only way a screen reader for the blind under Linux can get what a section of text says is either OCR screen image from X11 or use AT-SPI2 to get what the text is before it was turned to a image. OCR screen images is not dependable due to all the different font rendering solutions. So basically if a windows manager/wayland compositor does not support AT-SPI2 it does not support the people with disabilities at all. X11 protocol these days is fairly much useless for proper application remote control.
Tildearrow there no competing protocol on Linux to AT-SPi2 the reality is X11 and Wayland are not competition to AT-SPI2.
Linux Desktop does not have a place as a company default desktop if it does not support people with disabilities.
Tildearrow the problem here is AT-SPI2 is not that it looks like a solution. Turns out for a particular usage case on the Linux Desktop AT-SPI2 is the only solution there is no competition at all.
Originally posted by tildearrow View PostYes this is apparently the only solution. Now please do not serve frames over dbus considering it is not an optimal protocol. Maybe references to then but yeah. Thankfully everyone is using PipeWire so things are ok.
So in a lot of ways PipeWire screen capture is incomplete information so is X11 screen capture.
Please note if you apply this test to Microsoft RDP you run into the same problem is built for the totally able bodied people.
Originally posted by tildearrow View PostExactly. And the problem is that there is no easy way to use dbus without bringing bloat to the table. Maybe Python is an exception. But for C++ you are pretty much lost. Tie your application to GNOME Qt or systemd. Otherwise get lost in confusion land with libdbus.
Originally posted by tildearrow View PostPlease note that you are trying to make an excuse. Really all you are doing is making an excuse to pretend Wayland compositors do not have the screen recording problem.
Its really about time you wake up what you call screen recording is not what was X11 screen recording 40 years ago when the X11 server still rendered fonts and draw stuff on screen.
Originally posted by tildearrow View PostI do not understand who would use X11 sandboxing in a normal environment. You say that will be the main use case. Maybe in your bubble. Want to know how many people do that. Less than one percent guaranteed.
Originally posted by tildearrow View Post...in turn causing more issues. The need to develop a separate mechanism for data query is an example. Would dbus be required. Yes. Because of course it is the solution for it. Not that it is a problem. It should be fine as long as we still can make script for messing around Wayland windows.
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