GNOME Shell + Mutter 3.37.3 Are Out Roaring With Better Performance

[JackLilhammers]

Volta
That's very disputable.

blackiwid
I think you should take a little more time to check your english.
Your attitude is terribly opinionated. Who are you to label users as stupid?
Also you completely misunderstood the design process. You design for those who don't know your product because you want more of them to use it.
You must presume that they don't like to spend time learning the ins and outs of your software just because you did not want to make it familiar to them.
That's because usually users have their stuff to do and, speaking of Linux, if something is not really easy they just go back to Windows or macOS.
Not necessarily because they're easier or better, but because they already know it.

PS: The best way to teach keyboard shortcuts to the user it to put them beside the relative menu entries in the [global] menu bar

[Mez']

Gnome 3 on the other hand is for people that are not extremely stubborn and unwilling to learn better workflows a very usable and visually appealing desktop without a distro tweaking it, but I get that for the most stupid users that hate keyboards and try to work as slow as possible with their mouse only it may not work out perfectly. Even my old father that is a mouse pusher did not complain after using it for years without extensions.

Yeah, just keep burying your head in the sand.
"Better workflows" is the utmost narrow-minded thing you can say. And completely in line with the one-track thinking of Gnome advocates I was mentioning. That specific and unique workflow is better (for everyone), no matter how you use your computer. That's settled. You despicable users, we have decided what's best for you. Please change your workflow immediately.
Beside ecologists, I don't see often such narrow-mindedness.

Also, Vanilla Gnome visually is not so arguably horrible. It's a Windows equivalent of circa 2008, i.e. completely outdated visually. No wonder so many distros tweak immediately its aesthetics by default to something more like 2020, pleasing to the eye. And many themes are available in that perspective, to everyone's liking. Theming by itself justifies an extension for probably 90% of people, bar the Fedora cultists.

Gnome was never the default distro because it came with such great default settings, even with gnome 3 they are closer than ever, but because it's a solid base, without eye hurting colors / animations without having for everything 50 submenues and 5 system-configuration tools like plasma and with high stability.

Even as it took minutes to start in the earlier days of gnome 3 till when was that 3.14 3.20? it was still superiour and even under the noob distro Ubuntu gnome-shell got higher user scores than Unity in their software-center.

And yet any non geek would use Unity over Gnome any day of the week. If you lay all the questionable moves from Canonical aside, they clearly understand and care about their users 100x better/more than Gnome geeks ever will. No wonder Ubuntu has always had the wider (by far) "share" in the Linux world.

It's no dictatorship company where people get paid to create a desktop for noobs only which they then personally hate and not use,

It's not a company but it's clearly a dictatorship.

no it must at first be good enough for them to use it too, only from that starting point they can also include nood friendlyness. Otherwise you A have to pay higher wages and pay wages to every single person in the project (which they don't do I think?), and get less motivated people that produce a lower quality project.

That's what options are for. To accomodate noobs as much as advanced users. Again, Ubuntu target both equally. They don't ever stop focusing on the larger picture.

So that Ubuntu did their desktop war thing, to try to fork the linux desktop instead of creating this stupid user workflows of course did hurt gnome adoption rate, and because nobody else was really willing to do so. The problem is this stupid end user don't give redhat or gnome or anybody any money, so why should devs focus on creating a desktop for the most stupid users? Which incentive, even Canonical don't earns any money from this type of user. The only one that earns money is system76, so they don't complain and try to fork gnome they just change a few defaults bring a few plugins and that's it, they have the best ever linux desktop that is way better than anything 10 years ago on gnome or kde basis was availible much higher quality much more professional.

This makes no sense. Which non geek end user would care about Gnome when there is (was) Unity? Of course most common users would pick Ubuntu and Unity over Gnome. It was designed for them, to be adaptable to their needs. Gnome wasn't so it doesn't suit them as well.

Again, it's obvious you don't understand users. Calling them stupid is the biggest clue I guess. You don't see the egoistic pattern (it's not because you're not paid that you can't work towards satisfying many people). When I walk in the street, I freely try not to abruply stop in the middle of the street so that no one will bump into me. I take others into accounts although they won't thank me for avoiding a possible annoyance.
I'm not saying they don't have the right to do something for their own workflows, I'm just saying don't expect people to be happy when you didn't even try to create a friendly environment for them (but just for yourself). You should really ask yourself why most distros except Fedora have added extensions (if only a different theme and dash-to-dock).

You won't even understand what's wrong with that Gnome approach because you don't want to take other into accounts. You're not gonna have that open-minded approach.
It's all good for you. Let's do a thing that nobody asked for, and impose it to them, with little configurability, and whatever their habits are. Take it down your throat, you "stupid users". And afterwards, you'll look down to them: how can you even complain after what we did (freely) for you!?

In addition to workflows, resistance to change is always a barrier, you know. And always will be. "I used to do that this way, but it doesn't work anymore, what's wrong?"; "It was better before".
You just don't care I guess. "Everybody should do like me" is a familiar motto I suppose. Eventually, with Gnome and Fedora cultists, it always comes down to that. wayland works for them so it's ready. Vanilla Gnome works for them, then everyone should laud its design, whatever their workflows.

I believe it is that exact mentality and the abovementioned dictatorship that pushed Canonical towards creating Unity. Given the Gnome devs one-track thinking, I understand now how reasonable it was. They had no other choice but to. They did the right thing in competing Gnome with Unity.
It's even sadder now (knowing in hindsight how Gnome operates) that they have pulled the plug.

Also I find it funny that people here proudly say that they are members of the noob fraction that priotise no learning courve over higher productivity and refuse to use the keyboard.

I use keyboard shortcuts when I believe there's an added value (e.g. ctrl + space to call for uLauncher, which is better and faster than the app overview). My hands are not on the keyboard all the time. I'm not a mummy, I scratch my chin or my ass, I pet my cat, I comb my hair, I eat, drink, and many other things. When lying in the couch, I even use onboard for typing sometimes as the mouse doesn't require sitting up. Look into any non-IT department, and not everyone has both hands on the keyboard at all time. But on the mouse, it's more likely. There's a reaction time to get back to the keyboard, and it means using shortcuts is not faster.
Indeed, another flaw in your reasoning is that you believe that shortcuts are faster (because you're completely stuck into your Gnome vision) although with a different DE layout or extensions, you can do many things faster with the mouse because it's designed to be. But you would need to remove your blinders to acknowledge that.

[Mez']

Also you completely misunderstood the design process. You design for those who don't know your product because you want more of them to use it.
You must presume that they don't like to spend time learning the ins and outs of your software just because you did not want to make it familiar to them.

It's nice to see someone who gets that. I reckon you're no Fedora user.

[blackiwid]

I believe it is that exact mentality and the abovementioned dictatorship that pushed Canonical towards creating Unity. Given the Gnome devs one-track thinking, I understand now how reasonable it was. They had no other choice but to. They did the right thing in competing Gnome with Unity.
It's even sadder now (knowing in hindsight how Gnome operates) that they have pulled the plug.

ohh I hit a sore spot, somebody feeled adressed by my slightly trollish choice of words, but I find it funny that you base your opponion of Ubuntus choice to fork the linux desktop on what a random stranger that never send any patches to the gnome team not even used gnome for years longer than 2 mins and Fedora also not for years (which you also assumed I am a fedora user) says. You probably think they are the bork and what 1 fan or supporter of them think must be what the devs there think .

Again there is not much use in attracting let me formulate it sugar-coted for you snowflakes, less technic-aphine or non-dev people because they get no payment if 2mio or 20mio or 200mio users use their desktop, but what is nice is to attract developers, because they send good bugreports and patches.

That said if I want to attack them then for focus TO MUCH on the "dumb user" and not enough on advanced features like tiling wm and good development tools.

Windows has the most users by far, yet their OS sucks so having just numbers is not very important, what is important is to get the RIGHT users, and again if gnome would have released the perfect desktop for everybody, what again would then be the reason for the existence of distros, at least 90% of them could then be canceled instantly.

So of course the distros can modify the desktop, I even here from kde users that Kubuntu is the only usable plasma desktop because it's at least themed and probably also more than that. THE WHOLE POINT of linux well beside softwarefreedom I guess is customizability, it challenges the idea that you can have 1 desktop that is perfect for everybody, which is the mantra behind windows and macos.

Even the Kernel which is usually refered as the best highest quality peace of the Gnu/Linux ecosystem, distros modify with own patches. So why should there be no for the desktop?

[blackiwid]

Volta
That's very disputable.

blackiwid
You must presume that they don't like to spend time learning the ins and outs of your software just because you did not want to make it familiar to them.

if my 70 year old dad can deal with it, it's easy enough. It's not like gnome is hard to use, if you can't use it, you also can't install linux so you will never see gnome anyway.

[tildearrow]

GNOME is fully themable and extendable, that’s a nice FEATURE for you right there.

...and then it breaks on the next release, unlike other desktops.

If 100% of GNOME users have to use extensions to make it usable, then there clearly is a problem.

[angrypie]

...and then it breaks on the next release, unlike other desktops.

If 100% of GNOME users have to use extensions to make it usable, then there clearly is a problem.

The extensions I use rarely break (KStatusNotifier/AppIndicator) or are fixed quickly after a new GNOME release (e.g. Dash to Dock, GSConnect). Others are just nice to have and I wouldn't mind if they didn't work for a while, or I can fix them myself and try to send patches to upstream.

I hate being one of "those guys," but if you need extensions to make GNOME usable, you're better off using KDE, Xfce or any other desktop environment. Nobody is forcing you to use GNOME, and very often in this forum you sound like it's a criminal offense to have a different taste or opinion than yours.

[Mez']

I hate being one of "those guys," but if you need extensions to make GNOME usable, you're better off using KDE, Xfce or any other desktop environment. Nobody is forcing you to use GNOME, and very often in this forum you sound like it's a criminal offense to have a different taste or opinion than yours.

I don't know that guy, but when I read that we should use other DEs if we need extensions to make Gnome usable, I'd say you're the one who doesn't accept different tastes or opinions. Again, the yes man to whatever Gnome decides for him.
We can be convinced by the Gnome(/Unity) paradigm but not how it was implemented. If extensions can make up for it, as much as it's a shame they are required so badly, then we can still believe Gnome is the least bad DE. I need 18 extensions for my workflow to suit the way I like to proceed.
Doesn't prevent me from trying other DEs though. Mate (Mutiny) is a hell of a no. Budgie seems like the most promising of all. But Gnome is still my daily driver for now, as a makeshift solution until something better (for me), more open-minded, more user-oriented and more customizable (by default) comes up.

[angrypie]

I don't know that guy, but when I read that we should use other DEs if we need extensions to make Gnome usable, I'd say you're the one who doesn't accept different tastes or opinions. Again, the yes man to whatever Gnome decides for him.

This is way too much to assume from a four-line post. Please refrain from projecting your own flaws on me next time.

We can be convinced by the Gnome(/Unity) paradigm but not how it was implemented. If extensions can make up for it, as much as it's a shame they are required so badly, then we can still believe Gnome is the least bad DE. I need 18 extensions for my workflow to suit the way I like to proceed.

Baby duck syndrome is a hell of an ideology apparently. I wonder how you'd feel if you had to write your own programs to use a computer, like in the old days.

Doesn't prevent me from trying other DEs though. Mate (Mutiny) is a hell of a no. Budgie seems like the most promising of all. But Gnome is still my daily driver for now, as a makeshift solution until something better (for me), more open-minded, more user-oriented and more customizable (by default) comes up.

How is it not customizable? You're using 18 extensions on it.

[tildearrow]

I hate being one of "those guys," but if you need extensions to make GNOME usable, you're better off using KDE, Xfce or any other desktop environment.

I don't even use GNOME.

Nobody is forcing you to use GNOME,

Talk about enterprise distributions...

and very often in this forum you sound like it's a criminal offense to have a different taste or opinion than yours.

Why don't you tell that to 144Hz and debianxfce? They are the ones who began and fostered this whole crusade.

The problem is not using GNOME. The problem is using GNOME as a weapon against KDE and friends (and this is what 144Hz's been doing for 7 years).