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Ubuntu 20.04 GNOME X.Org vs. Wayland Session Performance Impact For Gaming

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  • #51
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    When it comes to the current gnome X11 compositor vs gnome wayland compositor when it comes to direct benchmarking of input lag there are ways todo this the wayland version wins more of that no. So of All wayland compositors have unusble input lag than gnome desktop be it on X11 or wayland complete unusable?

    So from duby229 statements duby229 must believe gnome is not useable. Or has to admit that all compositors be it X11, Wayland, or window dwm have different levels of input lag issues and it normal compositors. There are a lot of wayland compositors at the moment that are head to head in performance with their X11 version.



    Sorry you would not call wayland implementations Alpha quality at this point. They cross the standard to Beta quality quite a few years ago.

    https://www.guru99.com/alpha-beta-te...mystified.html

    Basically you need to read up on what Beta means. Alpha a user cannot really use it in any form of production sense because it will crash them. Go get the reactos install image install it in a vm and run it for a while. if you can get more 2 days using it without it being stuffed up some how past all user-ablity. You are doing well this is Alpha software for you.

    Weston has been Beta grade software from 1.0 release. So the question is has it moved from Beta to RC/Production grade. Wayland i getting fairly close to move out of Beta.

    So basically another statement that is wrong and has never been true.



    Writing protocols, Implementing to test protocols. Getting feedback back on those protocols with lots of rinse and repeat is not fast process. Does the current X11 protocol have any concept of Minimize or fullscreen or system tray or clipboard or desktop sharing the correct is no it does not.

    There is a stack of defacto standards that all this stuff under X11 is implemented by different parties differently. Yes those defacto standards have lead to wine having bugs submitted on a per windows manager base.

    So I am not really sure where you are getting the lowest common denominator logic from the X11 standard is closer to lower common denominator standard than the wayland standard is like it or not. Remove the defacto standards from X11 desktops and you don't have a functional desktop. You can have a somewhat functional desktop using only wayland protocol and other formal standards like opengl/vulkan.



    When the X11 protocol was 15 years old there was still no such thing as a clipboard or system tray, or ..... Taking 15 years to implement all this is still faster than the X11 protocol did it in. Heck there a lot in the wayland protocol that X11 protocol does not cover at all. It might be taking a long time to get the wayland standard written fully but its in a better location that you have a test suite and a standard where X11 you have a stack of mess with really nothing to say you implemented it correctly.

    See the problem yet your arguments are not really based on the facts of the problem.
    Another wall of bullshit from you.

    Fact is Gnome with wayland only just became useful between 1-2 years ago and still took it well over a -DECADE- to get there. Fact is that even still to this day if you do anything moderately CPU intensive on -ANY- wayland compositor, including gnome, input lag becomes totally unusable even still to this very day. Fact is the wayland desktop experience is still so incomplete that it can -ONLY- be used up till the point you need a feature it doesn't have implemented yet. Fact is Hogsberg himself invented the term for wayland "lowest common denominator", I simply reused his asinine remark. Fact is when X11 was exactly as old as wayland is -RIGHT NOW- xorg was already forked from xfree86 and heavily developed. Fact is when X11 was 15 years old it was 2003 and desktop linux was at a marketshare height it hasn't reached before or since....

    Need I keep going? I can keep laying facts down, this is just the simple truths whether you like them or not.
    Last edited by duby229; 03-30-2020, 09:52 PM.

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    • #52
      Originally posted by tildearrow View Post
      Ugh come on... What about if I want to change my display resolution, screen orientation or position?

      What a dumb idea :l
      Its not really a dumb idea its a different idea. Wayland viewporter protocol you can in fact ask for a orientation change on a per application base.

      It leave it up to compositor if when you application asks for a different resolution if the compositor changes the display resolution or it simply scales the window. This is kind of better.

      Think you have a application ask for 640x480 pixels that your monitor still supports xrandr changes to that only one problem your monitor happens to be hidpi and does not have scaling on that resolution. So now you have a small box in the centre of your screen and totally not usable as you cannot see the mouse pointer.

      Really we need the means that Applications are disconnected from direct control over screen so some bit of software can use some smarts in the middle. On that screen wayland compositor could know that 640x480 is a resolution not to use so when application asks for that use scaling in the GPU so the screen output remains a usable size.

      Wayland viewporter protocol is basically someone noticed there was a very nasty issue that xrandr could cause and that direct control of output from non approved applications need to go completely away.. Heck even with approved applications lot of cases there was logic the compositor would need to-do to keep machine use-able and not change to some non usable resolution at the same time letting the application work.

      Originally posted by tildearrow View Post
      I never knew there were that many clipboards...
      You think about the fun event when you have the clipboard data in each of the locations that your program knows about disagreeing with each other. At that point what data does the user in fact want to paste. X11 clipboard implementation mess is well beyond broken.

      Originally posted by tildearrow View Post
      Except that Mutter does not implement it as mentioned before in this thread.
      Depends on the version of Mutter some versions when you programs say I am server side decorations only Mutter does in fact do server side decorations because it has the code there for X11 windows. This is one of the recent changes in the last 12 months.

      So if people push the point this feature could come normal in Mutter.

      Originally posted by tildearrow View Post
      So, the problem is: either everything or nothing.
      In X11 you have data query (e.g. xdotool) but it is insecure because any application can access this info freely.
      ​​​​​​In Wayland there is no way to do data query (in the name of "security").
      You never asked yourself the right question should it be in the X11 protocol and is it even required in X11 or is it in fact duplication of something else.

      [QUOTE=tildearrow;n1168935]Is there a way to do data query? (e.g. retrieve window/screen/mouse/keyboard info)[/QUOTE

      Lets add to that question is there a way to get that information is a X11/Wayland neutral way. The answer is yes.

      https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Accessibility/AT-SPI2/

      Basically you are ignoring the AT-SPI2 protocol. If application does not work with AT-SPI2 people with disability could have problems using the program this include compositors.

      Originally posted by tildearrow View Post
      Please note that is a GNOME-specific protocol. I am talking about a standard protocol in Wayland.
      What I pointed to was not a GNOME specific protocol but the Gnome site detailing how their implementation of AT-SPI2 under Wayland is going.

      Originally posted by tildearrow View Post
      Couldn't they use a permission system, so that the user grants applications access to it?
      AT-SPI2 go though dbus and it normal policykit permission system.

      This is case where you need to explain why does wayland need to implement something that AT-SPI2 covers. Remember AT-SPI2 is something all compositors should support does not matter if they are x11 or wayland or something else on Linux.

      What you are suggesting is in fact compositors implement this feature twice ones for wayland protocol and once for AT-SPI2 support that does not make sense really.

      What you are asking for you should be up the ribs of wayland compositors to be AT-SPI2 compatible.

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      • #53
        Originally posted by jacob View Post

        Why? I just played Wolfenstein New Order & Old Blood using xwayland and had zero issues with it (Intel GPU). It's not Wayland that's crap, it's NVidia. If you want to play games on Linux, buy hardware that provides proper drivers for it and you won't have problems.
        Why? https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...35#post1168835

        Also, what else makes you assume that I use an Nvidia GPU? 🤨

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        • #54
          Originally posted by Mario Junior View Post

          Why? https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...35#post1168835

          Also, what else makes you assume that I use an Nvidia GPU? 🤨
          There is no stuttering or cursor lag here. As for why I assumed you use Nvidia, well that's because it's always Nvidia that causes issues with graphics on Linux (especially with Wayland of course, but not only). Intel and AMD GPUs just work as expected.

          Comment


          • #55
            Originally posted by duby229 View Post
            Fact is Gnome with wayland only just became useful between 1-2 years ago and still took it well over a -DECADE- to get there. Fact is that even still to this day if you do anything moderately CPU intensive on -ANY- wayland compositor, including gnome, input lag becomes totally unusable even still to this very day.
            That is not in fact true for the latest gnome or if you have allocated CPU resources correctly. High CPU load stalled out X11 in 2003 I have my notes from then.

            Originally posted by duby229 View Post
            FFact is the wayland desktop experience is still so incomplete that it can -ONLY- be used up till the point you need a feature it doesn't have implemented yet.
            That is no different to 2003 where I would need particular opengl features and they did not work because the low level stuff was not done yet.

            Originally posted by duby229 View Post
            Fact is Hogsberg himself invented the term for wayland "lowest common denominator", I simply reused his asinine remark.
            Really you did not understand Hogsberg usage of "lowest common denominator" Wayland objective is to cover that. X11 protocol does not have that objective and it does not cover important things like how clipboard works.

            If you are measuring where X11 protocol vs Wayland Protocol by "lowest common denominator" features. Current X11 protocol is still the lowest common denominator with the least defined features.

            Hogsberg objective of "lowest common denominator" is define in standard more features than X11 protocol does and not duplicate with existing protocols like AT-SPI2.

            Originally posted by duby229 View Post
            Fact is when X11 was exactly as old as wayland is -RIGHT NOW- xorg was already forked from xfree86 and heavily developed.
            X.org fork off from xfree86 was because Xfree86 was fairly much not usable mess.

            Originally posted by duby229 View Post
            Fact is when X11 was 15 years old it was 2003 and desktop linux was at a marketshare height it hasn't reached before or since....
            Fun fact I was using Linux desktop in 2003 and I have the logs of the reported issues.

            Really its possible to get a 2003 distribution install it in a virtual machine and run for a while. I recommend you do so you take of your rose colour glasses. X11 was not in that good of condition in 2003. It was 2007 when x.org finally learns how to auto-configure itself.

            2003 you are still in the time frame of the menu system between desktops being broken. Audio isssues form hell. If using Nvidia and you decide to run a complex program have have you complete desktop freeze as you kernel panics in background.

            X11 starts coming reasonable like ir or not 2007-2008. So about 20 years old. Wayland starts when those attempting to repair X11 protocol wake up there are many parts they cannot fix so the only option is start fro scratch.

            That the reality X11 took 20 years to get decent. A lot of the early people using the Linux desktop were willing to put up with worse than the current Wayland offerings that is reality.
            Last edited by oiaohm; 03-30-2020, 10:39 PM.

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            • #56
              Originally posted by jacob View Post

              There is no stuttering or cursor lag here. As for why I assumed you use Nvidia, well that's because it's always Nvidia that causes issues with graphics on Linux (especially with Wayland of course, but not only). Intel and AMD GPUs just work as expected.
              Play a game or encode a video or compile a program. Just do something moderately CPU intensive and then the input lag becomes unbearable. It's ubiquitous across all wayland compositors. It's not capable of syncing output on input. CPU load exacerbates it to an unbearable degree.

              Comment


              • #57
                Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

                That is not in fact true for the latest gnome or if you have allocated CPU resources correctly. High CPU load stalled out X11 in 2003 I have my notes from then.



                That is no different to 2003 where I would need particular opengl features and they did not work because the low level stuff was not done yet.



                Really you did not understand Hogsberg usage of "lowest common denominator" Wayland objective is to cover that. X11 protocol does not have that objective and it does not cover important things like how clipboard works.

                If you are measuring where X11 protocol vs Wayland Protocol by "lowest common denominator" features. Current X11 protocol is still the lowest common denominator with the least defined features.

                Hogsberg objective of "lowest common denominator" is define in standard more features than X11 protocol does and not duplicate with existing protocols like AT-SPI2.



                X.org fork off from xfree86 was because Xfree86 was fairly much not usable mess.



                Fun fact I was using Linux desktop in 2003 and I have the logs of the reported issues.

                Really its possible to get a 2003 distribution install it in a virtual machine and run for a while. I recommend you do so you take of your rose colour glasses. X11 was not in that good of condition in 2003. It was 2007 when x.org finally learns how to auto-configure itself.

                2003 you are still in the time frame of the menu system between desktops being broken. Audio isssues form hell. If using Nvidia and you decide to run a complex program have have you complete desktop freeze as you kernel panics in background.

                X11 starts coming reasonable like ir or not 2007-2008. So about 20 years old. Wayland starts when those attempting to repair X11 protocol wake up there are many parts they cannot fix so the only option is start fro scratch.

                That the reality X11 took 20 years to get decent. A lot of the early people using the Linux desktop were willing to put up with worse than the current Wayland offerings that is reality.
                You're so full of Bullshit!

                Comment


                • #58
                  Originally posted by jacob View Post

                  There is no stuttering or cursor lag here. As for why I assumed you use Nvidia, well that's because it's always Nvidia that causes issues with graphics on Linux (especially with Wayland of course, but not only). Intel and AMD GPUs just work as expected.
                  I talking about GAMES. Try to play TF2 with a AMD GPU (mine is the RX570) using Wayland and see the disaster. Don't forget to disable vsync.

                  Comment


                  • #59
                    Originally posted by duby229 View Post

                    Play a game or encode a video or compile a program. Just do something moderately CPU intensive and then the input lag becomes unbearable. It's ubiquitous across all wayland compositors. It's not capable of syncing output on input. CPU load exacerbates it to an unbearable degree.
                    Simply not true. If you want to know, i *DO* have a video encoding running right now, on a relatively feeble CPU too, with no problems. I know that the problem exists but it's not inherent to Wayland, moving the mouse or windows doesn't take any more CPU than under X11 - quite to the contrary, in fact. BTW GNOME's Mutter has an undocumented feature where it runs the main UI thread with RR scheduling. It's not enabled by default (not yet at least, and certainly for good reasons) but I tried it for some time, without any observable issues... and the UI just flied, regardless of CPU load.

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                    • #60
                      Originally posted by Mario Junior View Post

                      I talking about GAMES. Try to play TF2 with a AMD GPU (mine is the RX570) using Wayland and see the disaster. Don't forget to disable vsync.
                      I talked about my experience with Wolfenstein NO & OB. Last time I checked those were definitely GAMES, not office software

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