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  • #61
    Originally posted by treba View Post
    I've watched the video. It's horrible. A wayland session transmitted locally with zero network overhead and unlimited bandwidth is laggy is hell. Speaks volumes about the efficiency of Wayland remote desktopping.

    X.org is in the maintenance mode, so what?? Why does it need to improve every day? It just works! We have a wonderful kernel with thousands of commits daily which has hundreds of regressions each release, some of which render your HW 100% unusable.
    Code:
    ls -la patch-5.5.7
    -rw-rw-r--. 1 root root 1731847 Mar  3 17:33 patch-5.5.7
    A 2MB fix for issues in kernel 5.5. Isn't that a bit insane? Do you want X.org to be equally unstable? Thank you but no thank you.

    Sorry, I'm not convinced by Wayland and won't be until ... I don't know until when. Let people experiment with it - too sad some Wayland devs still use X.org is their primary display server.

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    • #62
      So, it isn't written anywhere that xorg is in maintenance mode. You are just a wayland's fanboy.

      Comment


      • #63
        Last but not the least:
        • What about global shortcuts in Wayland?
        • What about working out of the box screen casting/recording?
        • What about working remote desktopping?
        • What about a clipboard manager?
        Any distros out there which already offer these features in a way which any non-illiterate user can use? I wonder how people can use Wayland without all these features working. I use global shortcuts daily. I cannot live without a clipboard manager. I often need screen recording. I'm not concerned with remote desktopping at the moment.

        Also, I've heard there some issues with keyboard handling under Wayland.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by birdie View Post
          1. KDE has major troubles working around Wayland which speaks volumes about Wayland APIs. It's not like KDE devs are stupid.

          2. X.org has maybe crashed on me three times in my entire life. KWin and other window managers crash far too often and the system lives on. In Wayland a WM and a graphical subsystem are the same entity. That's absolutely wrong. Neither Windows, nor X.org was designed this way. How do you go about replacing your DM/WM in Wayland on the fly? Not possible at all?

          3. Using experimental Pipewire? How fast does it work in comparison to ssh -X/RDP? Can you watch videos over poor connections? Can you pass-through OpenGL/any sort of HW acceleration? No, nothing? Oh, crap. Wayland works with raw rectangles made of pixels. It cannot even say which parts of an application need updates to be sent over the net and which don't. Each active application window needs to be encoded in its entirety and sent. Wow, such an utter crap.

          4. Windows is always not comparable, only it offers vector very efficient GUI + video streams pass-through + Direct3D pass-through + audio compression and other perks. It was designed way before Microsoft even thought of remote desktopping yet they made it near perfect. Wayland designers perfectly got all the knowledge of the real world requirements and designed the protocol which is 100% ill-unsuitable for remote desktopping.

          5. Wayland requires GUI APIs to handle raw output, scaling and font rendering and antialiasing as it does nothing itself. Let's say you have three applications running using three different APIs (Qt, Enlightenment, Gnome). Let's say the user wants to upscale all three or change font antialiasing for all of three. Wow, we have some crazy crap going on here as each GUI API has to independently implement these features instead of relying on one common API which does everything for them, e.g. Win32 or xlib (though honestly Xlib has long been abandoned and Xorg works in many ways close to Wayland nowadays since it wasn't designed to handle modern GUIs).

          Wayland is great, isn't it? And this crap will forever require XWayland which is just nice. And XWayland applications cannot even properly interact with native Wayland apps. Tons of useful X.org utilities outright don't work under Wayland in any shape or form.

          Yeah, I'm trolling hard.
          1+2. This says more about KDE libs than Wayland. Pretty much the all graphics and toolkit devs agreed on how Wayland should be implemented (except nVidia but that's another story). I am sure you know better and should have been in those meetings. Pitty.

          3. Gnome remote desktop via pipewire works fairly well. There is also waypipe in the works that essentially provides a high-performance ssh -X solution.
          It is a common misconception that X still uses graphics primitives (like openGL) over the network. This has not been the case for probably 2 decades and ssh -X is essentially streaming video. A modern OpenGL application needs pcie-like bandwidths (100+ Gbps) vs. streaming video (10MBps - 10Gbps depending on res/quality/compression)

          4. Microsoft's RDP does some things well and is fundamentally compatible with X and Wayland. It also compromises on security in some regards (multi-user sessions).

          5. You answered your own question.

          Honestly, I'd be surprised if the next major versions of KDE or Gnome still ship with Xorg.

          Hope this helps.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by frank007 View Post
            So, it isn't written anywhere that xorg is in maintenance mode. You are just a wayland's fanboy.
            That's why he just said: "X11 is pretty much in maintenance mode already."

            You are just a xorg's fanboy.
            Leeo97one
            Junior Member
            Last edited by Leeo97one; 03 March 2020, 02:19 PM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by mppix View Post

              1+2. This says more about KDE libs than Wayland. Pretty much the all graphics and toolkit devs agreed on how Wayland should be implemented (except nVidia but that's another story). I am sure you know better and should have been in those meetings. Pitty.

              3. Gnome remote desktop via pipewire works fairly well. There is also waypipe in the works that essentially provides a high-performance ssh -X solution.
              It is a common misconception that X still uses graphics primitives (like openGL) over the network. This has not been the case for probably 2 decades and ssh -X is essentially streaming video. A modern OpenGL application needs pcie-like bandwidths (100+ Gbps) vs. streaming video (10MBps - 10Gbps depending on res/quality/compression)

              4. Microsoft's RDP does some things well and is fundamentally compatible with X and Wayland. It also compromises on security in some regards (multi-user sessions).

              5. You answered your own question.

              Honestly, I'd be surprised if the next major versions of KDE or Gnome still ship with Xorg.

              Hope this helps.
              pipewire is alpha software yet, the point here is wayland is not ready for desktop multi use propose.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                Show me a youtube video then, that has 1080p VP9 available, but not 1080p h264.
                As far as I remember all 60 fps videos didn't have any high quality h264 version.
                I've just re-installed h264ify and enabled it, and looking at one of my videos it still uses vp9 for *all* the resolutions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBh6-Pd5Otw
                I don't know if the extension is broken or 60 fps is simply not supported, but I also remember not being able to watch most of the youtube videos at 60 fps with my early Talos ppc64le system which didn't have vp9 support compiled in.
                darkbasic
                Senior Member
                Last edited by darkbasic; 03 March 2020, 02:52 PM.
                ## VGA ##
                AMD: X1950XTX, HD3870, HD5870
                Intel: GMA45, HD3000 (Core i5 2500K)

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                • #68
                  And by the way if you think that getting rid of 60 fps is a suitable solution, no it's not for every use case.
                  ## VGA ##
                  AMD: X1950XTX, HD3870, HD5870
                  Intel: GMA45, HD3000 (Core i5 2500K)

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Strange times we live in, suddenly there's a lot of raging noobs on the internet opposing innovation and software development. Happy user of systemd, wayland and pulseaudio here. They work excellent for all my use cases. Most of these "opinions" are based on FUD.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      Last but not the least:
                      • What about global shortcuts in Wayland?
                      • What about working out of the box screen casting/recording?
                      • What about working remote desktopping?
                      • What about a clipboard manager?
                      Any distros out there which already offer these features in a way which any non-illiterate user can use? I wonder how people can use Wayland without all these features working. I use global shortcuts daily. I cannot live without a clipboard manager. I often need screen recording. I'm not concerned with remote desktopping at the moment.

                      Also, I've heard there some issues with keyboard handling under Wayland.
                      What about global shortcuts in Wayland? -> out of scope for Wayland, again by design. I don't know about your specific use cases, but I personally like to have touchpad swipe gestures mapped to e.g. alt-left/alt-right. Not in vanilla GS, but works with a extension (https://extensions.gnome.org/extensi...nded-gestures/)

                      What about working out of the box screen casting/recording? -> works out of the box in GS and I think in KDE, too. Firefox on Wayland supports it out of the box (just try Fedora) and OBS Studio recently got a new plugin for that in the flathub version (https://feaneron.com/2019/11/21/scre...io-on-wayland/). Key here is that apps need to use the desktop portal and can't simply snoop on every other running app like on X11.

                      What about working remote desktopping? -> works out of the box in GS if the application supports the APIs, which are out of scope of Wayland (org.freedesktop.portal.ScreenCast and org.freedesktop.portal.RemoteDesktop)

                      What about a clipboard manager? -> compositor specific, I personally use clipboard indicator (https://extensions.gnome.org/extensi...ard-indicator/)

                      But the key argument here is always the same -> the Wayland / DE devs don't want to repeat the errors of the past and put everything into the core protocol. Many things can be done much better via dbus and friends and DEs are free to either agree on standards or create their own stuff. X11 is incredible bloated because it has to stay compatible back the stone age while any modern use of it is actually pretty similar to Wayland already (dri3 / toolkits doing the font rendering / WMs actually being compositors so you don't have tearing).

                      Anyhow, I don't need to convince you, I just don't want your IHMO badly informed comments to stand uncontested.
                      treba
                      Senior Member
                      Last edited by treba; 03 March 2020, 03:07 PM.

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