KDE Plasma 5.18 About To Release While Plasma 5.19 Well Under Way

[tildearrow]

What options do you think are being taken away? Breeze is the default theme you get with Plasma unless the distro has provided their own one(like Manjaro does for example). Setting a Breeze compatible GTK theme by default to go with that unless overridden by the distro provider is an enhancement.

The user after the install is still free to change the defaults to whatever they like. This just ensures you get a more consistent feeling desktop experience from the get go if you enjoy using some GTK apps. Nothing is taken away from the user.

I am using Oxygen.

I want to use Adwaita for GTK apps... because there is no Oxygen GTK theme anymore :l

[ssokolow]

I am using Oxygen.

I want to use Adwaita for GTK apps... because there is no Oxygen GTK theme anymore :l

I will admit that I'm sort of trusting that the KDE developers aren't ruling out this option. I have, on occasion, needed to do something to overrule KDE's attempts to customize my GTK config file to paper over mismatches like that... though usually more to do with differences in how they interpret font or DPI settings.

Before I wound up just using the Lubuntu theme on both, that sometimes involved chattr +i on the GTK theme config files. (A trick that tends to work surprisingly well. Applications which meddle in other people's config files are generally coded to deal gracefully with "I have no permission to modify that and none of overrides I know for 'user convenience' are working" in my experience.)

[polarathene]

I am using Oxygen.

I want to use Adwaita for GTK apps... because there is no Oxygen GTK theme anymore :l

Right... and Oxygen isn't the default in your distro of choice right? So you've got something like Breeze by default for Qt, and now you get Breeze for GTK default too. Nothing changes, you just change the themes to what you want from the defaults that came with the initial install. That's what defaults are, you're not forced to use them and still able to change those to whatever suits.

Seems like you were under the impression that if there is no GTK equivalent of a theme, it would enforce Breeze GTK? Not sure where you're getting that from when the article states:

GTK apps now use the Breeze-GTK theme by default unless a Linux distribution override is in place

Linux distros don't override your theme choices, only the defaults.

[polarathene]

I will admit that I'm sort of trusting that the KDE developers aren't ruling out this option. I have, on occasion, needed to do something to overrule KDE's attempts to customize my GTK config file to paper over mismatches like that... though usually more to do with differences in how they interpret font or DPI settings.

The article only mentions the default GTK theme shipped, nothing to do with when users change from default themes to their own preferences.

I believe there is another feature aimed at removing("simplifying") the system-settings, so that config for Qt/GTK theme stuff is handled more consistently, in that GTK theme stuff when appropriate would inherit from Qt. I don't remember specifics, afaik it was things like cursors, icons, colours, perhaps fonts(not sure if there is special handling for the issue you cite but I remember reading something like that before), stuff that should be fairly compatible.

If you look at current System-Settings for "Application Style -> GTK", you'll see the cursor and icons are separate configs, the actual theme for GTK2/3 is separate, I'm not sure if that's going anywhere, should be more clearer with the 5.18 release notes summarizing all the changes related to this. I think it's still possible to change those, they'll just have Breeze as the default, unless the distro chooses different defaults. On Manjaro it's "Breath".

[ssokolow]

The article only mentions the default GTK theme shipped, nothing to do with when users change from default themes to their own preferences.

I believe there is another feature aimed at removing("simplifying") the system-settings, so that config for Qt/GTK theme stuff is handled more consistently, in that GTK theme stuff when appropriate would inherit from Qt. I don't remember specifics, afaik it was things like cursors, icons, colours, perhaps fonts(not sure if there is special handling for the issue you cite but I remember reading something like that before), stuff that should be fairly compatible.

If you look at current System-Settings for "Application Style -> GTK", you'll see the cursor and icons are separate configs, the actual theme for GTK2/3 is separate, I'm not sure if that's going anywhere, should be more clearer with the 5.18 release notes summarizing all the changes related to this. I think it's still possible to change those, they'll just have Breeze as the default, unless the distro chooses different defaults. On Manjaro it's "Breath".

That's basically what I was trusting... that, KDE being KDE, didn't do something stupid like "Combine the Qt and GTK+ theme selectors for 'simplicity', then override the hand-editable config file by running their own GSettings daemon for the 'convenience' of having changes take effect immediately."

[tildearrow]

Awesomeness GNOME doesn’t pretend Qt is a Free upstream. CLA will never be tolerated.

(:3:43:2@-'?$@- RW!5*!5!"2"12-&13!24-!5!!!!

STOP already with the CLA thing! You really think it is a reason why KDE is inferior?!

You know, you are an annoyance. Can you leave us alone and go back to your GNOME threads?!?! -_-

[ssokolow]

tildearrow It’s not about my opinion or your opinion.

CLA makes things unworkable for people with high Freedom standards. GNOME, Debian etc won’t sign such deals that trade away Freedom.

It really puzzles me why you got a problem with this.

Because you keep coming into unrelated threads and spamming them with off-topic stuff about CLAs.

...hmm. Spamming... Maybe we should start flagging your posts whenever you try to change the topic like that.

[ssokolow]

ssokolow I answered why GNOME (and others) ignore Qt on very valid grounds.

That’s very different than pretending something doesn’t exist.

Point in favour of our interpretation: Since GNOME 3, GNOME has been trying to pretend that other GTK-based desktops don't exist. I remember some posts back around 2015 which were appallingly along the lines of "GTK is a GNOME toolkit. We'll make its behaviour as GNOME-specific as we like and your desktop doesn't want to follow along, too bad for you. Too bad for you that you took the state of GTK+ 1.2.x and GTK+ 2.x to be a promise to be a responsible provider of infrastructure."

If it helps you understand why it pisses us off, look at it this way. Your insistence on tying everything back to the CLA without presenting solid evidence is very reminiscent of conspiracy theorist behaviour.

[Morty]

Your insistence on tying everything back to the CLA without presenting solid evidence is very reminiscent of conspiracy theorist behaviour.

Since he is only grasping at something to put KDE down with, it's the only argument he can find. Of course he is to dum to realise that in the case of Qt, the CLA helps make it even more free combined with the Qt free Foundation.

But since the toolkit, technology, implementation, quality, functionality and usabiliy of KDE is superior he only has this straw to grasp. And the poor loser fails there too.

[ssokolow]

ssokolow Sorry but that’s far from being the root cause. GNOME was started due to unacceptable Qt licensing problems. These problems have never been resolved. So there’s nothing actionable as long Qt keeps the CLA.

Yes, licensing problems.

Early developments

On 20 May 1995 Troll Tech publicly released Qt 0.90 for X11/Linux with the source code under the Qt Free Edition License.^{[116][117][118]} This license was viewed as not compliant with the free software definition by Free Software Foundation because, while the source was available, it did not allow the redistribution of modified versions. Trolltech used this license until version 1.45. Controversy erupted around 1998 when it became clear that the K Desktop Environment was going to become one of the leading desktop environments for Linux. As it was based on Qt, many people in the free software movement worried that an essential piece of one of their major operating systems would be proprietary.

The Windows platform was available only under a proprietary license, which meant free/open source applications written in Qt for X11 could not be ported to Windows without purchasing the proprietary edition. Becoming free software–friendly

With the release of version 2.0 of the toolkit, the license was changed to the Q Public License (QPL), a free software license, but one regarded by the Free Software Foundation as incompatible with the GPL. Compromises were sought between KDE and Trolltech whereby Qt would not be able to fall under a more restrictive license than the QPL, even if Trolltech was bought out or went bankrupt. This led to the creation of the KDE Free Qt foundation,^[119] which guarantees that Qt would fall under a BSD-style license should no free/open source version of Qt be released during 12 months.^[120][121]

In 2000, Qt/X11 2.2 was released under the GPL v2,^[122] ending all controversy regarding GPL compatibility.

That aside, at the time, there were also legitimate complaints (long since fixed) about GCC's implementation of C++ which balloned into an ideological refusal to depend on C++, even when KDE developers were willing to offer C bindings, as I explained to you the last time we talked about this.

Interestingly the former Kwin maintainer refused to work on GTK.

What's so special about that? I'd refuse to work on GTK.

I started out on PyGTK and, after years of using it as the solution for writing applications which likely had most/all of their dependencies already installed on most systems, I finally tried PyQt when I didn't like where GTK 3 was going, aesthetically.

At that point, I realized what a painful, incomplete, and sometimes buggy pile of garbage GTK's APIs are to program against and, aside from one program which requires libwnck and has no visible UI, I haven't developed for it since.