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  • #11
    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    How is plasma light in any possible way?

    Just look at all these dependencies it drags in.

    https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/ports.cgi?query=^plasma5-plasma-desktop-5.17.5_1
    FreeBSD has traditionally adopted the bullshit way of dependency resolution aka "let's install everything remotely connected to it", and I think you know this as I think you said you preferred this bullshit way because it saves you time or something. You are being disingenuous if this is the case.

    This is the dependency list on OpenSUSE

    Code:
    zypper info --requires plasma5-desktop
    
    Information for package plasma5-desktop:
    ----------------------------------------
    Repository     : repo-oss                          
    Name           : plasma5-desktop                   
    Version        : 5.17.5-2.1                        
    Arch           : x86_64                            
    Vendor         : openSUSE                          
    Installed Size : 12.8 MiB                          
    Installed      : Yes                               
    Status         : up-to-date                        
    Source package : plasma5-desktop-5.17.5-2.1.src    
    Summary        : The KDE Plasma Workspace Components
    Description    :                                   
        This package contains the basic packages for a Plasma workspace.
    Requires       : [117]                             
        /bin/sh
        libstdc++.so.6()(64bit)
        libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4)(64bit)
        libstdc++.so.6(CXXABI_1.3)(64bit)
        libm.so.6()(64bit)
        libgcc_s.so.1()(64bit)
        libgcc_s.so.1(GCC_3.0)(64bit)
        libm.so.6(GLIBC_2.2.5)(64bit)
        libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.21)(64bit)
        libglib-2.0.so.0()(64bit)
        libm.so.6(GLIBC_2.29)(64bit)
        libgcc_s.so.1(GCC_3.3.1)(64bit)
        libgobject-2.0.so.0()(64bit)
        libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.9)(64bit)
        libQt5Core.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Core.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        libstdc++.so.6(GLIBCXX_3.4.11)(64bit)
        libQt5Gui.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Gui.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        libQt5Core.so.5(Qt_5.13)(64bit)
        libQt5Widgets.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Widgets.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        libgio-2.0.so.0()(64bit)
        libX11.so.6()(64bit)
        libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.15)(64bit)
        libKF5CoreAddons.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5I18n.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Network.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Network.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        libQt5DBus.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5DBus.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        libKF5ConfigCore.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5WidgetsAddons.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Xml.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Xml.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        libKF5ConfigWidgets.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5XmlGui.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Qml.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Qml.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        libKF5ConfigGui.so.5()(64bit)
        libfreetype.so.6()(64bit)
        libKF5KIOWidgets.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5KIOCore.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5PrintSupport.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5PrintSupport.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        libxcb.so.1()(64bit)
        libKF5Completion.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Quick.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5DBusAddons.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Quick.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        libKF5IconThemes.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5X11Extras.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5X11Extras.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        libKF5Service.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Svg.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Svg.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        libfontconfig.so.1()(64bit)
        libQt5Sql.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Sql.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        libKF5WindowSystem.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5Notifications.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5Archive.so.5()(64bit)
        libXi.so.6()(64bit)
        libXfixes.so.3()(64bit)
        libKF5Parts.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5JobWidgets.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5Codecs.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5ItemViews.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5KIOFileWidgets.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5QuickWidgets.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5QuickWidgets.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        libKF5NewStuff.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5GuiAddons.so.5()(64bit)
        libXft.so.2()(64bit)
        libKF5Wallet.so.5()(64bit)
        libXcursor.so.1()(64bit)
        libX11-xcb.so.1()(64bit)
        libKF5KCMUtils.so.5()(64bit)
        libphonon4qt5.so.4()(64bit)
        libKF5ItemModels.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Concurrent.so.5()(64bit)
        libQt5Concurrent.so.5(Qt_5)(64bit)
        kirigami2
        libKF5NotifyConfig.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5GlobalAccel.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5Solid.so.5()(64bit)
        libqt5-qtgraphicaleffects
        libKF5Declarative.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5SonnetUi.so.5()(64bit)
        libxkbfile.so.1()(64bit)
        libKF5Activities.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5Plasma.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5QuickAddons.so.5()(64bit)
        libibus-1.0.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5KDELibs4Support.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5AuthCore.so.5()(64bit)
        libxcb-xkb.so.1()(64bit)
        libKF5Package.so.5()(64bit)
        libxcb-keysyms.so.1()(64bit)
        libKF5Baloo.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5Runner.so.5()(64bit)
        libxcb-image.so.0()(64bit)
        libkworkspace5.so.5()(64bit)
        kde-user-manager
        kinfocenter5
        kmenuedit5
        ksysguard5
        libKF5PlasmaQuick.so.5()(64bit)
        libKF5Emoticons.so.5()(64bit)
        kactivities5-imports
        libKF5ActivitiesStats.so.1()(64bit)
        libnotificationmanager.so.1()(64bit)
        libtaskmanager.so.6()(64bit)
        libxcb-record.so.0()(64bit)
        plasma-framework-components >= 5.66.0
        plasma5-workspace >= 5.17.5
        /sbin/ldconfig

    Comment


    • #12
      This is xfce4 (a middle-weight DE) for comparison

      https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/ports.cgi?query=^xfce-4.14&stype=name

      There are less than half the number of dependencies!

      Plasma has too many components. There are too many things to break, leading to FOSS desktops being very fragile.

      Comment


      • #13
        Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
        This is xfce4 (a middle-weight DE) for comparison
        Did you not understand that we said FreeBSD has bullshit packaging?
        This only means that the xfce maintainer in FreeBSD is not as braindead as the Plasma one, but it still contains a bucket of crap that shouldn't be there to begin with.

        Why the fuck did they add gstreamer, dmidecode, poppler and CUPS to xfce for example. That's not a dependency of the DE, that's secondary applications that work alone.

        Plasma has too many components. There are too many things to break, leading to FOSS desktops being very fragile.
        Stop this crap, half the packages or more in your list are NOT dependencies of Plasma at all, they are just marked as such in FreeBSD because they are lazy and can't make metapackages.

        Comment


        • #14
          Nice with Linux support.
          But does it only work on X11 or does it work on Wayland?

          Comment


          • #15
            Originally posted by uid313 View Post
            But does it only work on X11 or does it work on Wayland?
            https://lumina-desktop.org/faq/
            Lumina is currently only available on the X11 graphical system. The code-base is designed to be easily ported to another graphical system sometime down the road (only a single file to re-implement in the new system), but at the present moment, there is no scheduled time for any conversions to take place.

            Comment


            • #16
              Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
              This is xfce4 (a middle-weight DE) for comparison. There are less than half the number of dependencies!
              Quit while you're behind.

              Comment


              • #17
                Originally posted by DanL View Post

                Quit while you're behind.
                Not at all. It is well known that KDE and Gnome are exceptionally bloated.
                Run your package manager query of choice on something like Xfce and you will see a much more sane number of dependencies is output.

                Obviously FreeBSD has "lite" meta-packages (i.e https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/ports.cg...me&sektion=all). This isn't the problem.

                The issue still stands, these desktops are all still far too heavy to be maintainable. And for what? *Less* functionality than 10 years ago?

                Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                This is the dependency list on OpenSUSE

                Code:
                zypper info --requires plasma5-desktop
                That is not how you install plasma in a standard context... That will end up with just a mess (missing out most required packages).
                I'm not convinced that you have managed to install even the window manager! Would you also not expect the KDE text editor to also be present as part of the DE?

                Or are you trying to say that plasma isn't a desktop environment and in fact just a session manager?

                (I am pretty sure this oversight has just managed to confuse some of the other members.)
                Last edited by kpedersen; 02-03-2020, 08:22 AM.

                Comment


                • #18
                  Originally posted by kpedersen View Post

                  Not at all. It is well known that KDE and Gnome are exceptionally bloated.
                  Run your package manager query of choice on something like Xfce and you will see a much more sane number of dependencies is output.

                  Obviously FreeBSD has "lite" meta-packages (i.e https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/ports.cg...me&sektion=all). This isn't the problem.

                  The issue still stands, these desktops are all still far too heavy to be maintainable. And for what? *Less* functionality than 10 years ago?
                  Number of packages does not mean more bloat. Some distros split their packages up into smaller more modular packages which leads to higher installed package count, while others like arch prefer bigger more bloated packages leading to a lower number installed packages. You are grasping at straws and being disingenuous.

                  Also can you provide evidence that KDE is unmaintainable? Last time I checked it seems to be doing great.

                  Furthermore XFCE lacks even basic features or functionality that even windows XP has had.
                  Last edited by 240Hz; 02-03-2020, 08:21 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Originally posted by 240Hz View Post
                    Furthermore XFCE lacks even basic features or functionality that even windows XP has had.
                    I think that is kind of the problem. You are right that Xfce is lacking features but so is KDE/plasma. All at the same time, Windows XP's desktop environment ran in less than 50Megs ram and consumed half the disk space as plasma alone.

                    This is honestly not me saying one DE is better than the other. I think they are all absolute trollop! I don't believe the open-source community is doing well here.

                    Unfortunately, new users coming from Windows don't have a clue about the problem. At the same time I am getting a general feeling that Linux veterans are burying their head in the sand and just telling themselves "everything is fine".

                    Originally posted by 240Hz View Post
                    Also can you provide evidence that KDE is unmaintainable? Last time I checked it seems to be doing great.
                    Just check out the sheer number of patches required to it to build / run on different platforms (even different distros). Also you can kind of see by the fact that it is impossible to get KDE 3 compiling on a modern platform. If you project this by 10 years, we can safely make the same assumption that KDE5 will also be impossible to get compiling on a (then) modern platform.
                    Unless of course they start engineering in some preservation mechanisms into the code.
                    Last edited by kpedersen; 02-03-2020, 08:43 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                      Just check out the sheer number of patches required to it to build / run on different platforms (even different distros). Also you can kind of see by the fact that it is impossible to get KDE 3 compiling on a modern platform. If you project this by 10 years, we can safely make the same assumption that KDE5 will also be impossible to get compiling on a (then) modern platform.
                      Unless of course they start engineering in some preservation mechanisms into the code.
                      KDE3?
                      Take your medicine or stop trolling.
                      Last edited by 240Hz; 02-03-2020, 09:05 AM.

                      Comment

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